UK EU Referendum Thoughts

[sadmanbarty]

Well then you will be disappointed in me, but pleased with the result I expect.

There are two children playing in the road. A car is about to hit the two children. For whatever reason you can only grab one, so unfortunately you can’t save both. Do you a) save one child or b) let them both get hit because either way something bad will happen?

 

[Mr. Tea]

Immigration is high, but you have just inflated it by 25%.

Please read what I actually wrote. The population growth rate is about 400,000 per annum. Most of that is due to net immigration. Some is due to natural growth, which immigration is contributing to since immigrants have a higher fertility rate than people who were born here.

Why are you pushing inflated immigration figures?

Why are you insisting I've said something I haven't said?

Re the Droid / Tea "right wing immigration dogwhistle campaigning tactics" controversy - surely the question of who's to blame is separate from the question of what if anything the left (or, to take a broader view, any people who aren't utterly despicable) could be doing better to fight those tactics? And once you've answered the first, the second is the one that gets stuff done.

This is a big part of it. When it comes to trying to fight any is kind of prejudice I'm afraid "it's the thought that counts" is not an adequate sentiment. Not everything that people do and say in an attempt to fight racial prejudice is going to be effective. Sometimes it has no effect and sometimes it's entirely counterproductive.

 

[john eden]

There are two children playing in the road. A car is about to hit the two children. For whatever reason you can only grab one, so unfortunately you can’t save both. Do you a) save one child or b) let them both get hit because either way something bad will happen?

Is this another of your "jokes"?

 

[haji]

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics...referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result
could well be off, but generally far less biased than the meeja

 

[sadmanbarty]

Is this another of your "jokes"?

Maybe you think its a bit silly, but I think its a fair reflection of your logic:

You have two scenarios, both of which are bad. However one is far worse than the other. You could help ensure that the worse scenario doesn't happen, yet you choose not to because your ideal scenario is not an option.

You can take the piss of my example all you want, but you must admit that the above is not sound reasoning.

 

[john eden]

Maybe you think its a bit silly, but I think its a fair reflection of your logic:

You have two scenarios, both of which are bad. However one is far worse than the other. You could help ensure that the worse scenario doesn't happen, yet you choose not to because your ideal scenario is not an option.

You can take the piss of my example all you want, but you must admit that the above is not sound reasoning.

If my only political activity was occasionally sticking a cross in a box you would have a point.

 

[sadmanbarty]

If my only political activity was occasionally sticking a cross in a box you would have a point.

It’s great you’re politically active (hope that doesn’t sound sarcastic written down, I do genuinely mean it), however I don’t see how that’s relevant.

Going back to the kids getting run over example. Say you had just spent the day lobbying for speed cameras to be installed in the exact areas the children are playing, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t also try and save one of the children from getting hit.

Likewise, though its great that you’re politically active, you shouldn’t abstain from a vote that could leave people (disproportionately the poor) worse off, with less rights and worse public services, while at the same time empowering the more malign elements within the political culture.

[PS. sorry for being so petulant]

 

[Mr. Tea]

Is this another of your "jokes"?

Hey come on, he's better than Russell Howard.

 

[john eden]

It’s great you’re politically active (hope that doesn’t sound sarcastic written down, I do genuinely mean it), however I don’t see how that’s relevant.

Going back to the kids getting run over example. Say you had just spent the day lobbying for speed cameras to be installed in the exact areas the children are playing, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t also try and save one of the children from getting hit.

Likewise, though its great that you’re politically active, you shouldn’t abstain from a vote that could leave people (disproportionately the poor) worse off, with less rights and worse public services, while at the same time empowering the more malign elements within the political culture.

[PS. sorry for being so petulant]

You are in a room with a man and a boy. The man gives you two options: to kick the child in the head or in the balls. What do you do?

You are in a room. A man gives you the choice of torturing 10,000 cats or 9,999 cats. What do you do?

 

[sadmanbarty]

You are in a room with a man and a boy. The man gives you two options: to kick the child in the head or in the balls. What do you do?

You are in a room. A man gives you the choice of torturing 10,000 cats or 9,999 cats. What do you do?

The second one is the better analogy in so far as the results are quantifiable. I'd also add the caveat that either way either way one of those options will happen and if I do nothing its more likely 10,000 cats will be tortured (which makes it more analogous to the referendum).

I'd opt for the 9,999 option, it'd be immoral to do otherwise.

I'd like to point out though that the effect to peoples income (disproportionately the poor) will be far greater than -0.01% that the numbers suggest in the cat analogy.

Th effect to tax credits alone is far higher that. Plus you have to add in the effect of the economic downturn, the loss of workers rights, the cuts in public services, etc.

Would you admit that your logic was flawed?

 

[droid]

You are the leader of a small, secluded country. A fatal and extremely contagious disease infects a small segment the population. If you isolate & quarantine this group you can prevent the disease from spreading, depriving them of liberty but saving numerous lives in the process.

What do you do?

 

[sadmanbarty]

John, let me put it this way:

Imagine if we had an election coming up. Voting A would increase money in public services, increase tax credits to the poor, increase workers rights and generally boost the economy in such a way as to disproportionately benefit the poor. Voting A would also come as a major blow to the morale and political standing of the far right and those politicians who more closely represent the interests of big business at the expense of the poor. Voting B would maintain the status quo and likely make things worse by allowing the right wing party to make decisions with no parliamentary safeguards.

Would you vote for A or B?

 

[droid]

Please read what I actually wrote. The population growth rate is about 400,000 per annum. Most of that is due to net immigration. Some is due to natural growth, which immigration is contributing to since immigrants have a higher fertility rate than people who were born here.

Well, the average annual growth rate is actually 440,000, so you either underestimated that by 40,000 or were overestimating immigration by 80,000. It was hard to tell which.

Why are you insisting I've said something I haven't said?

Ahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Slothrop]

Thought this was good:

Advert in Metro, paid for by a reader who's fed up with the amount of shit being talked about immigration.

 

[droid]

Decent article:

There Is No Left Exit

We shouldn’t have illusions about transforming the EU from below. But a Leave vote would only strengthen the Right.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/06/brexit-referendum-leave-remain-immigration/

 

[Mr. Tea]

Well, the average annual growth rate is actually 440,000, so you either underestimated that by 40,000 or were overestimating immigration by 80,000. It was hard to tell which.

Alright mate, whatever. You'll notice I did say "about", and the figure varies from year to year anyway. Actually. The point is, it's a big number. Actually.

Ahahahahahahahahahaha

If you're going to make your favourite game "Tell Mr. Tea he's talking shit because he hasn't read your post properly", it kind of behoves you to be extra careful on this front yourself.

 

[DannyL]

Personally, I'm just glad that Jon has seen clearly there's no case for a Lexit - the ugliness of the word alone gives the game away.

Kinda shitting myself over tomorrow. It seems a triumph of tabloid fantasising, that kind of weird feedback loop that was set up with benefit claimants. The starting assumptions are totally false but incoming evidence is moulded to support them, and you end up a policy enacted totally at variance with reality.

 

[john eden]

John, let me put it this way:

Imagine if we had an election coming up. Voting A would increase money in public services, increase tax credits to the poor, increase workers rights and generally boost the economy in such a way as to disproportionately benefit the poor. Voting A would also come as a major blow to the morale and political standing of the far right and those politicians who more closely represent the interests of big business at the expense of the poor. Voting B would maintain the status quo and likely make things worse by allowing the right wing party to make decisions with no parliamentary safeguards.

Would you vote for A or B?

I don't accept that those are the options here.

You are in the same room with the same man. He asks you again to make a choice between two brutal things.

At what point do you say "no"? At what point do you question the validity of legitimising the piss poor choices you have been offered?

(Given that you have already admitted that you would be happy to torture 9,999 cats to save one cat)

I haven't voted in a general election since 1987.

 

[vimothy]

Thought this was good:

Advert in Metro, paid for by a reader who's fed up with the amount of shit being talked about immigration.

It's a bit apples-to-oranges though isn't it?

 

[craner]

Sadmanbarty: I Would Kill 10,000 Cats