UK EU Referendum Thoughts
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john eden
male pale and stale
I feel this sort of tabloid exaggeration is unhelpful, Craner. (But I suppose it is in keeping with the general tone of the campaign in its last stages).
To be clear: Sadmanbarty would only torture 9,999 cats.
It is possible that he would also kill 10,000 cats if the alternative was killing 10,001 cats. But we haven't established that yet. Sadman?
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
Closing track from a compilation of death metal covers of Proclaimers tunes.
luka
Well-known member
Lool
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
John you’re looking for a reason why staying in the EU will make life better for people, not just limit the damage of leaving. Well by Joe I think I’ve got it (I’ll respond to your other post in a bit).
Say X amount of political activism leads to Y good being done. Of course this will play out differently depending on where your starting point is.
So say in Saudi Arabia, X amount of political activism would result in people being given free and fair trials. It’s got a long way just to compare to Britain, even though its better.
Well in Britain we already have free and fair trials so the X amount of activism can be focused on attaining us, for example, huge reductions in inequality and decreasing the burden on the poor. So society would be better.
If we left the EU we would loose lots of things (the poor would be poorer, with less workers rights and less money going into public services).
So X political activism would merely be engaged in trying to win back some of the things society lost, at best returning us to the status quo.
If we stay the very same amount of political activism would make society better than it currently is.
So X amount of political activism will result in society becoming Y better than it is now.
Brexit= Status Quo – Y
Brexit + X = Status Quo
Remain= Status Quo
Remain + X = Status Quo + Y
John, voting remain is a springboard for making the future better, not just limiting the damage of leaving.
Given what I understand of your values I’d say vote Remain and keep up the activism.
Say X amount of political activism leads to Y good being done. Of course this will play out differently depending on where your starting point is.
So say in Saudi Arabia, X amount of political activism would result in people being given free and fair trials. It’s got a long way just to compare to Britain, even though its better.
Well in Britain we already have free and fair trials so the X amount of activism can be focused on attaining us, for example, huge reductions in inequality and decreasing the burden on the poor. So society would be better.
If we left the EU we would loose lots of things (the poor would be poorer, with less workers rights and less money going into public services).
So X political activism would merely be engaged in trying to win back some of the things society lost, at best returning us to the status quo.
If we stay the very same amount of political activism would make society better than it currently is.
So X amount of political activism will result in society becoming Y better than it is now.
Brexit= Status Quo – Y
Brexit + X = Status Quo
Remain= Status Quo
Remain + X = Status Quo + Y
John, voting remain is a springboard for making the future better, not just limiting the damage of leaving.
Given what I understand of your values I’d say vote Remain and keep up the activism.
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
What are the options then?
At its simplest, morality is about making more good things happen and less bad things happen in the real world.
So will rejecting the legitimacy of our options (by not voting) make any actual good things happen or stop any actual bad things happening (not in an abstract philosophical sense, but in the real world)? Will workers have more rights because you didn’t vote? Will the poor be better off? Will there be more money in public services because you didn’t vote? Will Germany send reparations to Greece because you didn’t vote?
Rejecting the legitimacy of the situation only has any moral validity if it has implications for the real world. In this instance that’s not the case.
Britain staying in the EU (thanks to remain voters) would have the real world effect of preventing a great many bad things happening (which I’ve outlined for you before). Furthermore it’s a springboard for progress in the future.
At its simplest, morality is about making more good things happen and less bad things happen in the real world.
So will rejecting the legitimacy of our options (by not voting) make any actual good things happen or stop any actual bad things happening (not in an abstract philosophical sense, but in the real world)? Will workers have more rights because you didn’t vote? Will the poor be better off? Will there be more money in public services because you didn’t vote? Will Germany send reparations to Greece because you didn’t vote?
Rejecting the legitimacy of the situation only has any moral validity if it has implications for the real world. In this instance that’s not the case.
Britain staying in the EU (thanks to remain voters) would have the real world effect of preventing a great many bad things happening (which I’ve outlined for you before). Furthermore it’s a springboard for progress in the future.
craner
Beast of Burden
Final tally for me.
Global Security = In
National Security = In
Democracy/"Democratic Deficit" = Out
EU Regulations = largely out
European Courts = largely out
Effect on UK Industry = can't decide/don't know
Effect on small businesses = Out
Migration/Free Movement = In
Access to Single Market = In
Financial Sector (City of London) = In
Further political integration (the heart of the Project) = massively conflicted, depends on a the issue of democrac
I think global security and the existence of an expansionist Social Democratic bloc in a fracturing world is the deciding factor for me, in conjunction with a strong NATO.
Global Security = In
National Security = In
Democracy/"Democratic Deficit" = Out
EU Regulations = largely out
European Courts = largely out
Effect on UK Industry = can't decide/don't know
Effect on small businesses = Out
Migration/Free Movement = In
Access to Single Market = In
Financial Sector (City of London) = In
Further political integration (the heart of the Project) = massively conflicted, depends on a the issue of democrac
I think global security and the existence of an expansionist Social Democratic bloc in a fracturing world is the deciding factor for me, in conjunction with a strong NATO.
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
As I understand it EU regulations aren’t stifling us (and of course a lot of the more ludicrous stuff is made up by the tabloids).
www.doingbusiness.org/rankings
www.ft.com/cms/s/2/0260242c-370b-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7.html#axzz4C2VvMaLb
Our worst regulations are our property regulations, which are decided domestically, they have nothing to do with the EU.
Likewise as I understand it the majority of small business owners are pro-Remain (though I do think people overestimate how well businesspeople understand macroeconomics).
http://www.fsb.org.uk/standing-up-for-you/policy-issues/european-union/eu-referendum
http://news.cbi.org.uk/reports/our-...t-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/
EU membership seems to benefit them. A weaker UK economy means less domestic demand for their businesses, the EU also provides them with a market to export to and it provides skilled workers (though with a Norway style deal, we won't see much of a change in immigration).
I don’t know enough about the ins and outs of industry to have an opinion. Immigrants help combat the lack of skilled workers, though there may well be disadvantages of the EU to UK industry I’m unaware of.
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...struggling-recruit-skilled-workers-eef-report
We’ve ostensibly opted out of an “ever-closer union”. How that will actually materialise is another issue.
craner
Beast of Burden
I know, I have no expertise on the economic arguments, either. But I think it is fairly strongly evident that EU Regulations do have an effect on small businesses, constrains them, increases costs, etc, to an extent that can otherwise be absorbed by larger businesses. I don't see how that can be dismissed, even apart from the fact that they are regulations created by an unelected, supranational entity, and so come out of nowhere for them.
The industry thing is hard, and I'm largely thinking of the rules that have prevented a grand bail-out of the Port Talbot steel industry: EU anti-competition rules partly put the nix on that. Port Talbot now has a surfeit of skilled workers, not a lack of them.
We've opted out of ever-closer union, but it seems beside the point, and the main EU players treat that with contempt. I think it must be acknowledged that the whole point of the EU is integrated political federalism, and the most passionate Europhiles on all sides desire it to greater or lesser extents. This is why the pro-EU side has seemed to lack the polemical passion of Leave: they know it would be political suicide to push the Euro-federalism argument hard, because it is deeply unpopular. Now I'm conflicted on this: the federalist argument attracts me because I despise Nation State nationalism and I strongly relate to a pan-European identity, but it also worries me because in its current trajectory it is a fundamentally un-democtratic project.
The industry thing is hard, and I'm largely thinking of the rules that have prevented a grand bail-out of the Port Talbot steel industry: EU anti-competition rules partly put the nix on that. Port Talbot now has a surfeit of skilled workers, not a lack of them.
We've opted out of ever-closer union, but it seems beside the point, and the main EU players treat that with contempt. I think it must be acknowledged that the whole point of the EU is integrated political federalism, and the most passionate Europhiles on all sides desire it to greater or lesser extents. This is why the pro-EU side has seemed to lack the polemical passion of Leave: they know it would be political suicide to push the Euro-federalism argument hard, because it is deeply unpopular. Now I'm conflicted on this: the federalist argument attracts me because I despise Nation State nationalism and I strongly relate to a pan-European identity, but it also worries me because in its current trajectory it is a fundamentally un-democtratic project.
Steve Hilton's crowdpac survey does a good job of quantifying this.
I'm 57% in.
https://www.crowdpac.co.uk/eu-referendum-in-or-out
Given that I import lots and lots of stuff from Germany VAT and duty free from EU, I'm trying to work out why I considered Leave even for a moment. Over it now.
I don't understand the supposed red tape, effect on small business. Seems vague and hand-wavy - EU has only done good for our business, it's whichever tool is in No.11 who causes problems.
craner
Beast of Burden
It seems there are plenty of examples of small businesses being damaged by EU regulations, although I admit I have no examples to hand. And non-EU regulations can be just as damaging, like Welsh Assembly extensions of the Welsh Language Act, but at least the Welsh people voted for their representatives who drafted that bollocks.
craner
Beast of Burden
I am conflicted on a lot of these points, have some knowledge of some (security), huge swathes of ignorance on others (economics). I distrust anybody who thinks there's an obvious answer.
Like, from my side (Labour and TUC) we hear a lot about workers rights being protected by EU legislation, which is undoubtedly true. It is generally stronger than a lot of the rights enshrined in parliamentary legislation, but parliamentary legislation was achieved and passed by Labour governments as a result of a democratic vote.
Now I understand the fear of Tory government unshackled by EU law rolling back those rights and denying access to legal challenge in European Courts. (It's my day job!) But, that denies political accountability and responsibility; it's effectively saying, we don't trust the British electorate to vote for the correct government to protect our rights, and we should therefore defer to the rules devised by an unelected and unaccountable Commission. That's a dangerous choice, essentially junking the democratic principle for a perceived "Greater Good". It's a dodgy and false position and it reminds me of that pro-Leave platform in the Scottish referendum: vote for Scottish Independence to avoid English Tory rule. It's short-term, ideological tactics, and sidesteps or buries the larger argument.
Like, from my side (Labour and TUC) we hear a lot about workers rights being protected by EU legislation, which is undoubtedly true. It is generally stronger than a lot of the rights enshrined in parliamentary legislation, but parliamentary legislation was achieved and passed by Labour governments as a result of a democratic vote.
Now I understand the fear of Tory government unshackled by EU law rolling back those rights and denying access to legal challenge in European Courts. (It's my day job!) But, that denies political accountability and responsibility; it's effectively saying, we don't trust the British electorate to vote for the correct government to protect our rights, and we should therefore defer to the rules devised by an unelected and unaccountable Commission. That's a dangerous choice, essentially junking the democratic principle for a perceived "Greater Good". It's a dodgy and false position and it reminds me of that pro-Leave platform in the Scottish referendum: vote for Scottish Independence to avoid English Tory rule. It's short-term, ideological tactics, and sidesteps or buries the larger argument.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
^weirdest Proclaimers cover ever
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
oh well FUCK YOU then
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
I got 77%. On the economy I was 100% and on democracy I was on 50.
I'd say that's a good reflection of my attitudes.
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
Craner, in terms of the economy there is an unprecedented, near-consensus amongst economists. All the most prestigious economic institutions forecast negative impacts on the economy from leaving. 88% of over 600 academic economists surveyed said the impact would be negative (with only a very small amount saying it would be positive).
craner
Beast of Burden
Yeah, I know, the only counter-argument I can credit is the effect on small businesses.
Although, the other example of EU regulation harming UK industry is the demolition of UK fisheries, by restricting their fishing range from (what was it?) 200 miles to 12. But I guess that's a niche concern.
But I must remind everybody, I am in, with reservations.
Although, the other example of EU regulation harming UK industry is the demolition of UK fisheries, by restricting their fishing range from (what was it?) 200 miles to 12. But I guess that's a niche concern.
But I must remind everybody, I am in, with reservations.
craner
Beast of Burden
Last post was totally glib.
But a lot of UK small businesses don't rely on major EU imports and a majority don't export to the EU, but get slammed by (essentially) supranational regulations that make no sense to them and harm their profits and viability. They will be a bloc of pro-Leave voters, and it seems odd to deny that.
But a lot of UK small businesses don't rely on major EU imports and a majority don't export to the EU, but get slammed by (essentially) supranational regulations that make no sense to them and harm their profits and viability. They will be a bloc of pro-Leave voters, and it seems odd to deny that.
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