UK EU Referendum Thoughts

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mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Some contrary thoughts to reverse-Godwin common and potentially spurious virtue-signallings; please provide counters:

- Voting to remain is racist: the EU is a Caucasian power block designed to shore up the race's privileged position in the face of increasing threats from without. Europeans are racially homogeneous and buying the odd kielbasa from Pawel down the road does not mean that you have cured yourself of your xenophobic tendencies; try the Commonwealth instead for extra points.

- Voting to remain is colonialist: the stronger European nations are stripping the weaker ones of their assets without even having to leave their armchairs; monetary backflow is scant consolation for damage to the social fabric and an acidic trickle-down effect that ends up depriving the very weakest countries of their brightest and best (England takes E.Europe's doctors, who then raid the Far East for replacements).

- Voting to remain increases the chance of a new Hitler: to prevent a power-grab by a comely demagogue, one shouldn't aggregate power, but fragment it; would Adolf have got as far as he had, had Germany been composed of twenty independent states?

- Voting to remain doesn't make you unselfish. The arguments typically given to remain in fact prompt the converse, as they are just as parochial and self-serving as those given by those who wish to jump ship. Instead of considering the benefits (or not) that would come to Europe from our continued involvement, we cite the opposite. If we ask not what we can do for Europe but only what it can do for us, then we are not truly part of the European project. Therefore, I vote that Europe kicks us out for a clear unpreparedness truly to commit, regardless of the path we choose.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
How much sovereignty do we take actually get back once we negotiate a trade deal with the EU?

If I recall correctly, senior Norwegian politicians have warned Brits that regaining full sovereignty is a fantasy.

Also once we leave we won’t be able to influence EU regulation in the way we have done previously.

Since 1999 we’ve voted for 95% in favour of votes in the EU council and only 2% against.

We vote 85% in favour in the European parliament.

Our MEP’s also tend to be over represented in agenda setting positions and report writing.

I’m by no means saying that concerns over sovereignty and democracy are illegitimate, but it’s a misrepresentation to say the referendum is a simple vote between an undemocratic system and a democratic one.

Unfortunately sovereignty is often the price of cooperation.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
I'm really talking about democracy rather than sovereignty, Cat-killer, but I concede there may be a link, and it's complicated.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
I'm really talking about democracy rather than sovereignty, Cat-killer, but I concede there may be a link, and it's complicated.

Fair enough, psychopath, I was using the terms too interchangeably. However I would say the issue I raised are applicable to both.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member

Well the good news is after today I'll stop harassing you.

There's much that I agree with in these links. All I would say is that leaving the EU will negate all the potential good that's come and that will come from your and others activism.

Like I said before remaining is the beginning of making the UK (and Europe) better and more just than it has been.

Leaving means that activists will begin a long, difficult journey that at best returns us to the status quo, let alone making things actually better.

There are a great many injustices to deal with in the future. But our very immediate concern must be to ensure that the poor don't become poorer, workers don't loose their rights and public services aren't reduced.

If leave win then it is in the hands of the far-right and the Eurosceptic right to shape the future in britain and they will be more empowered to do so in europe too.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member

Sorry John, one last thing. This is how successful voting blocks are in the EU from left to right. It seems that people who share your values (as I understand them to be) have far more sway in Europe than they do in Britain.

https://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/12/16/1450278768996/LSEEU2.png
 

craner

Beast of Burden
I just did that Steve Hilton thing.

Identity - 71 % In
Economy - 54 % Out
Society - 54 % In
Democracy - 50/50 !

Apparently that means I'm 55% In.

Which'll help down the Polling Station later on. See ya!
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I don't know why we can't just be in and ignore most EU regulations and laws, like France and Germany do. Their civil servants don't give a shit about that stuff, and make it work for themselves.

Glib, maybe, but not irrelevant. In the piece about Alan Sugar that someone posted a few pages back, I got the impression he thought the problem wasn't the EU or its regulations per se, but an unnecessarily punctilious and pedantic British government and civil service that insists on applying these rules to the letter, to the detriment of our economy, where other countries just ignore them.

Which does rather make you wonder what the point of these regulations are, if following them is basically optional.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I just did that Steve Hilton thing.

Identity - 71 % In
Economy - 54 % Out
Society - 54 % In
Democracy - 50/50 !

Apparently that means I'm 55% In.

Which'll help down the Polling Station later on. See ya!

62% In for me (and 62% In on each criterion, oddly enough).
 

vimothy

yurp
We've opted out of ever-closer union, but it seems beside the point, and the main EU players treat that with contempt. I think it must be acknowledged that the whole point of the EU is integrated political federalism, and the most passionate Europhiles on all sides desire it to greater or lesser extents. This is why the pro-EU side has seemed to lack the polemical passion of Leave: they know it would be political suicide to push the Euro-federalism argument hard, because it is deeply unpopular. Now I'm conflicted on this: the federalist argument attracts me because I despise Nation State nationalism and I strongly relate to a pan-European identity, but it also worries me because in its current trajectory it is a fundamentally un-democtratic project.

That seems largely true. Part of what's at stake here is whether you'd rather live in a nation state or some sort of post-national treaty organisation. It's hard to generate loyalty for the latter (which is sort of the point), so people aren't really campaigning for it explicitly (from what little I've seen).
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Well, I just went out to cast my vote, and the sun was beaming over the Bristol Channel, picking out white houses on the North Devonshire shore.

I will now try to enjoy my last evening in a relatively stable country.
 

luka

Well-known member
THE BRITISH EMPIRE THE GREATEST THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN.....WON 2 WORLD WARS THE 5 LARGEST RICHEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD...FOR A TINY ISLAND WHAT DOES THAT SAY...THE GREATEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD...WE SAVED EUROPE AND THE WORLD FROM THE NAZIS....NO ONE SHOULD GOVERN US WE SHOULD GOVERN THE EU AND THE WORLD....NO ONE IS GREATER AND FAIRER THEN THE GREAT BRITISH....RULE BRITANYA WE WILL RULE FOREVER AMEN NEW JERUSALEM FOREVER GOD IS GREAT AMEN
 
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