Beyond Soul.

[pattycakes_]

@thirdform yeah in Morocco there was plenty of schmaltzy rubbish. Like in Jem El Fnaa, playing for the tourists. And the big budget shows that went on til the early hours in big hotels full of the wealthy and beautiful locals. But! with some digging, real shit can be found tucked away in the corners of the Medina and down little back alleys. People of various ages just playing their favourite shit as it always was. Songs of love, rebellion, fucking, getting high etc. True folk music. Asilah on a Friday night down by the entrance to the docks is all fishermen smoking hash and playing til at least 2. There's spirit there you can't just find anywhere.

São Paulo on most nights of the week with the right info you can find small bars packed with people dancing til late to a handful of musicians sat around a table, totally real and informal. And again they all know the words. It's magic. Extended samba&folk jams with all kinds of rhythmic twists and turns and these enchanting vocal melodies. The level of musicianship here is incredible.

 

[thirdform]

I didn't really mean so much schmalts so much as the minimalistic technique has been lost.

 

[pattycakes_]

it only takes a military coup to kill the avant-garde stone cold dead. we had a very strong anatolian rock movement that still kept the ruggedness of the folk tradition but updated it.

That sounds cool. When I'd just arrived in Morocco I went straight to Chaouen to pick up some supplies. Shared an informal taxi with 3 Chinese girls and the driver only had one CD. It was Tinariwen. The drive from Fez to Chaouen took hours and we had it on loop. In combination with the landscape it was the perfect introduction to the country. Vast expanses of rugged land and what it is to live in it expressed perfectly by those riffs.

 

[pattycakes_]

I didn't really mean so much schmalts so much as the minimalistic technique has been lost.

Right yeah, the tourist stuff in morocco all felt a bit half hearted and cynical to me. Sometimes the bands would be good but they'd play for 3 minutes and the stop to pass the hat around. In fact the better they were the more likely that was because they knew they'd hooked people in.

 

[pattycakes_]

I didn't really mean so much schmalts so much as the minimalistic technique has been lost.

Just realized that I didn't mean schmaltz after all. More like tacky, cheap.

 

[thirdform]

I mean I don't mind if the musical purist movement in turkey is totally extinguished i don't care all that stuff is now propounded by ottoman nostalgic reactionaries, especially in the classical realm. it's just a shame microtonal techno isn't coming out of tr.

 

[pattycakes_]

The 2 examples of good stuff I mentioned before weren't in any way purist. More just people enjoying themselves with a few drinks or hits and some music. Rough around the edges in the best way. If it ain't broke..

 

[luka]

See Pharaoh Sanders live and see if you still think this. Or some Gnaoua. Or some hindustani. With good enough musicians it's still possible.

http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=13484&page=11&highlight=Pharaoh+sanders

I have seen pharaoh sanders live. You can read my match report here.

 

[luka]

I'm not really saying what you think I'm saying though.

 

[Corpsey]

is soul about maturity and a certain degree of convoluted emotions? untempered joy can't be soulful?

for example this is profoundly, potently emotional, but it's not soulful:

Yeah I think I said earlier that soul is somehow a mature thing, while this is very much adolescent/pre-pubescent. (Which gives it its own melancholy aspect, for a jaded old prune like me, which would presumably not register with an actual child/teenager at all.)

 

[sadmanbarty]

This thread has tons of potential, easily another dematerialisation.

So, a love supreme. Why was something so overtly religious convincing back then, whereas it’d be cringe enduring now (mavado)?

Joni mitchel’s Blue. Obviously it’s a myth that it’s anything other than a white girl attention seeking by being abnoxiously annoying, but how was that myth able to flourish before in a way that couldn’t happen to an artist now?


But there are emotions still aloud to exist in music. Ego, childish enfatuation, apathy...

What’s happened? Which emotions aren’t allowed (aloud) now?

 

[luka]

Nick Drakes Pink Moon is in Bartys top 100 records corpse don't let him wind you up about Joni lol

 

[sadmanbarty]

Coltrane ascended to literal sainthood.

Someone like Marylon Manson when I was lickle appeared to be not of this world.

Rza and gza cane accriss as enlightened.

Now all pop stars are trying to just be normal. Just regular people. Hendrix wasn’t, Robert plant wasn’t.

 

[Corpsey]

Depends where you look I reckon

Just so happens we inhabit a realm in which the old 'rockist' discourse has been supplanted by 'poptimist' ideals - rejection of the 'deep' and complicated in favour of the innovative and hedonistic, a generational conviction that our parents were all getting high on their own farts worshipping bob dylan and the beatles (and indeed worshipping metalheadz and autechre)

But I'm sure there's still plenty of people out there seeking depth and authenticity and 'soulfulness' from their music.

Not to claim they're 'authentically' soulful, but two of the most popular artists in the world are Adele and Ed Sheeran. They make weepy, deeply feely music that you can play at weddings.

 

[sadmanbarty]

Joni Mitchell is all the annoying bits of Kate bush but without any of the campness, songwriting talent or context of the British class system to remder it endearing.

 

[Corpsey]

I reckon some people would see this shift as being about capitalism fundamentally winning against the counter culture. Rap music for example - Puff Daddy. Used to be seen as the ultimate sellout, death of the culture figure - now under a puff daddy video you'll find people in their 30s and 40s moaning about how 'this was when hip-hop was still hip-hop'...

 

[sadmanbarty]

In the time period luke’s Talking about there’s been a soul revival-Adele, whinehouse, sza, etc.

A culture almost consciously yearning for it

 

[luka]

In the time period luke’s Talking about there’s been a soul revival-Adele, whinehouse, sza, etc.

A culture almost consciously yearning for it

It's an impersonation though isn't it. It's imitating the surface features without inhabiting the role. This is what I was talking about earlier. It links to the pastiche thread.

 

[Corpsey]

I guess that also speaks to the idea of capitalism bastardising everything it touches, so that soul can't be soul anymore, only a replication of soul, like an Andy Warhol soup can.

 

[sadmanbarty]

Depends where you look I reckon

Not to claim they're 'authentically' soulful, but two of the most popular artists in the world are Adele and Ed Sheeran. They make weepy, deeply feely music that you can play at weddings.

Drake.

Even all the X factor music is full of signifiers trying to scream ‘this is emotional’