IdleRich

IdleRich
Anyone else read that Johnson has a strategy planned in which some of his mates send letters of no-confidence... and then, when the threshold is breached, withdraw them so that the challenge collapses? Probably only momentarily but might take the wind out of its sails I guess. Sneakily ingenious if true, and, not for the first time, I find myself thinking "if only Johnson/Trump put as much effort into fighting poverty, crime or anything worthwhile, as they put into fighting for their own political survival." I don't think that I have ever had cause to admire an original and ingenious solution that Johnson has invented for anything useful.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Kwateng claiming that Johnson was right to say that crime was decreasing cos people don't really care about fraud these days



He didn't actually say that it was a friendly crime but he wasn't far from it

 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Of course - it doesn't need saying but I will say it anyway - it's a laughably weak defence to say "When Johnson said that all crime had decreased it was true because he meant all crime has decreased if you don't count fraud and people don't care about fraud so everyone should have understood automatically that he meant crime other than fraud". The idea that a statement is true cos it means a different (true) thing from what it says is fucking ludicrous.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
The wider point here is that you simply cannot defend the indefensible without looking like a complete cunt. Any one of these wankers who chooses to go on telly and pretend that Johnson is not telling lies has to make a conscious decision to kiss goodbye to any credibility they still have.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
What did Johnson want from the Savile comments? Obviously he must have known that this (and worse) was a possibility but was this his aim or not? My guess is that he wanted everything up but not including physical attacks on Starmer cos at that point it becomes bad publicity for Bozza himself, probably he wanted as many people as possible stirred up and almost at that point - angry at Starmer, a bit of pressure of him and so on, but no further. Of course it was a calculated risk, he must have known that this might happen and so he was fairly sanguine about it if it did, but my guess (which of course could be totally wrong) is that he wasn't trying to actually get the guy hurt or killed. Though I'm sure in general he would love to have Starmer killed if he could do it without his fingerprints being all over the murder weapon...
 

Dusty

Tone deaf
What did Johnson want from the Savile comments?

It was surely an intentional bit of noise to deflect from all his other problems. Isn't that his conscious game plan? Stir up headline-grabbing gaffes and crazy nuggets of drama. Keep doing it week-in, week-out so that both the news and the public are overwhelmed and exhausted.

Would he want Starmer dead? I'm sure such a weak, conflicted opposition is ideal.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Very true. It's rare that I find myself agreeing with this man but this seems to be one of those times. It appears that this Starmer/Savile thing is a long-standing conspiracy theory - also long debunked - but I'm wondering what might have caused people to suddenly act on it now when it's been around for so long. Was there some kind of thing that could have triggered it?
a. It will just be some nonsense that Boris' acolytes joke about - "gosh Boris, have you hear what they are saying about Starmer now, ho ho ho"
b. It will have emerged during a meeting about tactics - "we're in a hole, how can we distract everyone by attacking Starmer - what are the options?"
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I've been following Shayan a while now and this just seems like a hardcore group of 100 sovereign citizen lads. Bit mad really

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60294483

He is a good resource for all the weird shit bubbling under. I've saw a few people get red-pilled a bit but not to this extreme



It's pretty odd eh. Dont quite see the end game yet
Well a bunch of them will get nicked eventually. There are already a load of business owners who have been fined thousands for staying open in the lockdown and then claiming their sovereignty etc. Which of course doesn't work in court.

It does seem that some elements are edging towards some kind of insurrection like Jan 6th - and one the anti-conspiracy accounts on twitter posted something last night from the convoy with a woman saying that at least now "they" would know that they can't walk around alone. This isn't too far away from incitement or whatever.

It's not great really. You've already seen some of the Qanon "satan hunter" lot kidnap a child:


What you have fundamentally is an eco-system where some people are hawking for attention or trying to gain an income from all this. And an eager audience. Same as the far right. That isn't going to go away.

Both the desire for attention and income requires a certain amount of excitement, spectacular claims, events, etc.

I don't think this is going away any time soon.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Of course - it doesn't need saying but I will say it anyway - it's a laughably weak defence to say "When Johnson said that all crime had decreased it was true because he meant all crime has decreased if you don't count fraud and people don't care about fraud so everyone should have understood automatically that he meant crime other than fraud". The idea that a statement is true cos it means a different (true) thing from what it says is fucking ludicrous.
But even then it's total bollocks, because there's been a massive increase in violent crime - which, in the "No-one cares about fraud" view of the world, is presumably "the kind of crime people care about" - in the last decade.

1644319727910.png
 

wild greens

Well-known member
What you have fundamentally is an eco-system where some people are hawking for attention or trying to gain an income from all this. And an eager audience. Same as the far right. That isn't going to go away.

Both the desire for attention and income requires a certain amount of excitement, spectacular claims, events, etc.

I don't think this is going away any time soon.

The only thing i really wonder is whether- as Rona subsides- it has the legs and depth of theory to become something else. At the moment the "crime reference number" has definitely invigorated some of them (although this convoy is a shitshow) but save for further variants the virus doesn't really have the legs to push on into 2023, i think anyway. Restrictions are by and large gone now.

Arguably one of the "strengths" of the movement is that its not race-led per se (unless we're counting the nefariois "they"), as opposed to the much more direct far-right, which does allow for a wider reach to the graft, and a lot more women

Does the narrative transition into early Q child abuse conspiracy derivative? If so Johnson being the catalyst is a fucking unusual turn.

"the elite"
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Well a bunch of them will get nicked eventually. There are already a load of business owners who have been fined thousands for staying open in the lockdown and then claiming their sovereignty etc. Which of course doesn't work in court.

It does seem that some elements are edging towards some kind of insurrection like Jan 6th - and one the anti-conspiracy accounts on twitter posted something last night from the convoy with a woman saying that at least now "they" would know that they can't walk around alone. This isn't too far away from incitement or whatever.

It's not great really. You've already seen some of the Qanon "satan hunter" lot kidnap a child:


What you have fundamentally is an eco-system where some people are hawking for attention or trying to gain an income from all this. And an eager audience. Same as the far right. That isn't going to go away.

Both the desire for attention and income requires a certain amount of excitement, spectacular claims, events, etc.

I don't think this is going away any time soon.
I meant "what caused the mob?" ie Johnson, but yeah, what caused Johnson to bring it up now is a better question.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I meant "what caused the mob?" ie Johnson, but yeah, what caused Johnson to bring it up now is a better question.
Well the mob was already there and was then nudged along and given legitimacy by Johnson. The root causes are several decades of neoliberal ideology + social media + lockdown.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
The only thing i really wonder is whether- as Rona subsides- it has the legs and depth of theory to become something else. At the moment the "crime reference number" has definitely invigorated some of them (although this convoy is a shitshow) but save for further variants the virus doesn't really have the legs to push on into 2023, i think anyway. Restrictions are by and large gone now.

Arguably one of the "strengths" of the movement is that its not race-led per se (unless we're counting the nefariois "they"), as opposed to the much more direct far-right, which does allow for a wider reach to the graft, and a lot more women

Does the narrative transition into early Q child abuse conspiracy derivative? If so Johnson being the catalyst is a fucking unusual turn.

"the elite"
The resilience of this stuff in America has really intensified over the last few years. The acceleration from a few cranks with rooms full of paper about the JFK assassination, to '9/11 was an inside job' to Qanon supporters storming the capitol building is remarkable.

These groups seem to thrive on attention / excitement rather than any coherent ideas, so there will be an eager audience waiting for the next iteration. You'd hope that when COVID becomes much more manageable that a lot of people will just crack on and put this stuff behind them, but I guarantee you that some people will just jump on the next thing.

The satanic-pedo conspiracy is not going to go away and that will get some attention when Prince Andrew goes to trial.

Whoever it is that puts up the anti-vaxx stickers round my way has an equal number about 5G and the New World Order and how men are not manly any more.

And the sovereign citizens were already wanging on about not having to pay parking fines.

So there are already options, before some completely new mumbo jumbo enters the arena, as it surely will.

As you say the involvement of "yoga mums" for want of a better term means that socially it is a lot more interesting for people than the usual sad loner blokes convention of the far right.
 

okzharp

Well-known member
What did Johnson want from the Savile comments? Obviously he must have known that this (and worse) was a possibility but was this his aim or not? My guess is that he wanted everything up but not including physical attacks on Starmer cos at that point it becomes bad publicity for Bozza himself, probably he wanted as many people as possible stirred up and almost at that point - angry at Starmer, a bit of pressure of him and so on, but no further. Of course it was a calculated risk, he must have known that this might happen and so he was fairly sanguine about it if it did, but my guess (which of course could be totally wrong) is that he wasn't trying to actually get the guy hurt or killed. Though I'm sure in general he would love to have Starmer killed if he could do it without his fingerprints being all over the murder weapon...

I don't see any reason not to believe what he says in semi-jest here

 

Leo

Well-known member
This is Trump. Overwhelm the media with crazy shit, everyone eventually becomes immune or just gives up/tunes out. then they can do the real damage.
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
I definitely think that they both employ that strategy. And it works in the short term I think, they have both had moments when they have been caught doing something that would have been the end for many of their predecessors, or which would have certainly been the only topic of discussion for months, but they get it off the front pages by doing something else which replaces it.

To me it seems a strange strategy, I guess a little bit like that thing when they rub mustard on a horse's chest during a painful medical procedure so that the burning in its chest distracts it from what they are up to... but I've never understood how that is better. If the mustard pain is even worse then what good is taking their mind off the other pain? And logically that feels like it ought to be the case here, Tumpson keeps on doing another bad thing to make people forget the previous one, but if you're constantly being busted doing worse and worse things then that doesn't really seem like a sustainable long-term strategy to me. It certainly means that every now and again someone who does have time to pause and collect their breath can produce a huge and horrible looking list of all their increasingly disgraceful transgressions and posterity (among other things) will not be at all kind to that list.

I say "logically that feels" which is a strange mixture of ways to reason and maybe that's why my conclusion is (so far) apparently wrong. As far as I can tell neither suffered any particular problem from this strategy. But I do think it's a bit like grabbing a tiger by the tail or maybe when you are running downhill and going too fast and your legs are desperately trying to keep up with your body but you know that if you try and stop you will take a huge tumble. I suppose what I'm saying is that i have to grudgingly admit that in the short term and even the medium term it seems to work but even so I believe it to be a reckless strategy and those who pursue it must be aware that they are always on the edge of losing control...
 

version

Well-known member
The resilience of this stuff in America has really intensified over the last few years. The acceleration from a few cranks with rooms full of paper about the JFK assassination, to '9/11 was an inside job' to Qanon supporters storming the capitol building is remarkable.

These groups seem to thrive on attention / excitement rather than any coherent ideas, so there will be an eager audience waiting for the next iteration. You'd hope that when COVID becomes much more manageable that a lot of people will just crack on and put this stuff behind them, but I guarantee you that some people will just jump on the next thing.

The satanic-pedo conspiracy is not going to go away and that will get some attention when Prince Andrew goes to trial.

Whoever it is that puts up the anti-vaxx stickers round my way has an equal number about 5G and the New World Order and how men are not manly any more.

And the sovereign citizens were already wanging on about not having to pay parking fines.

So there are already options, before some completely new mumbo jumbo enters the arena, as it surely will.

As you say the involvement of "yoga mums" for want of a better term means that socially it is a lot more interesting for people than the usual sad loner blokes convention of the far right.
I doubt it's entirely organic. There were reports a while back of someone from the FBI being caught posting inflammatory stuff on one of the chan sites and trying to wind people up and there have been instances of them manufacturing terror incidents over the years. They identify vulnerable people then start working on them, nudging them toward whatever it is they want them to do whilst offering them money, weapons and so on. The same shit they've been doing for decades. Every up to date military and government has units dedicated to online activities now too. The social media platforms are infested with bots, sock puppets etc.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
It seems such a huge leap to go from thinking "They're not telling us the whole story about JFK/911/etc" and deciding to be sceptical about the official version of events, to hearing an alternative version - which, as a rule, does not tend to be hugely more believable than the official version - and accepting that so completely that you are prepared to go on protest marches, block traffic and even attack a pizza restaurant with a gun.

Why are people so sceptical towards the official version and so childishly gullible when presented with alternatives? I mean, for me to take a gun and attack a pizza restaurant I've got to be REALLY REALLY sure that it is a paedophile lair... not think it's possible or even likely on the balance of possibilities, I would have to be absolutely one hundred percent certain.

It's a nightmarish scenario to be in the power of a madman making completely insane demands that you simply can't satisfy. Someone insisting - on pain of death - that you fly. or show them where the secret tunnels to the cages where the paedos keep the kidnapped children for example. Like in Marathon Man when he keeps asking "Is it safe?"

 

version

Well-known member
One thing that often occurs to me these days is that people don't genuinely believe whatever it is they're yelling about. They're often just the tools to hand, e.g. people suddenly acting outraged about an issue they've never expressed outrage about before because a political opponent has recently made that a viable line of attack.

There's a DeLillo interview where he says something about the modern conspiracy theory - the interview was published in 2010, iirc - being less about the theory and more about it being a statement of protest and dissatisfaction. It's not the actual narrative, it's that it disagrees with the official one.

"The earlier era of paranoia in this country was based largely on violent events arid on the suspicions that spread concerning the true nature of the particular event, from Dallas to Memphis to Vietnam. Who was behind it, what led to it, what will flow from it? How many shots, how many gunmen, how many wounds on the President’s body? People believed, sometimes justifiably, that they were being lied to by the government or elements within the government. Today, it seems, the virus is self-generated. Distrust and disbelief are centered in a deep need to raise individual discontent to an art form, often with no basis in fact. In many cases, people choose to believe a clear falsehood, about President Obama, for instance, or September 11, or immigrants, or Muslims. These are often symbolic beliefs, usable kinds of fiction, a means of protest rising from political, economic, religious, or racial complaints, or just a lousy life in a dying suburb."
 
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