Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Maybe if we all stopped destroying our brains watching films and fucking around on the internet these seemingly difficult/boring books would be an absolute breeze. People are definitely thicker nowadays than they used to be
 

woops

is not like other people
he's compared sometimes to nabokov as they both wrote in English as a second language which is why they overwrite and show off. so that might put you off. i like it
 

william_kent

Well-known member
Maybe if we all stopped destroying our brains watching films and fucking around on the internet these seemingly difficult/boring books would be an absolute breeze. People are definitely thicker nowadays than they used to be

depends what films....
 

woops

is not like other people
Maybe if we all stopped destroying our brains watching films and fucking around on the internet these seemingly difficult/boring books would be an absolute breeze. People are definitely thicker nowadays than they used to be
I'm not sure about this code 1> if you took a person from 100 years ago and got them to read dissensus they'd be baffled (as i am frequently) and 2. Conrad was i reckon, only read by an educated minority even at the height of his success
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Maybe it depends what films, the historical context, relativity, different mediums etc, but I still can't shake the feeling that people nowadays are generally stupider than before and it has a lot to do with screens
 
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you

Well-known member
@Benny B has a point, something I've touched on before. I wouldn't say 'stupider' though... but humans are very adaptable, and adapt to what is most prevalent. Today, that is a form of social media which privileges engagement volume over meaning, nuance, delicacy or even communicative efficacy. Why write a love poem when you can send an aubergine?

There is the infamous study that showed digital natives' eye muscles 'read' differently.... not to the end of the line, or even consecutive lines, but adopted a sequence tracking the 'golden triangle'. This isn't to say others read incorrectly... there is no right or wrong in communication, communication changes. There is no 'better'.

A highly adapted skill set is best suited to the environment of its development, the crucible of conditioning. Reading Dickens, Gogol, or early Stephen King or Franzen is just the same as looking at a Titian or Picasso.... one sees differently to those that first saw the works, so we should afford that difference. Like olfactory sense, we don't see what we're acclimatised to. Only the unusual, the new, smells.

I do err on the traditionalist side. I dislike social media, dislike distractions, and privilege long form articulation with nuance and delicacy. But perhaps not to the point of being like a smug luddite congratulating themselves for ignorance and ineptness with new technology. I do, however, feel that there needs to be a balance and some tenors are more appropriate than others, which is why overly glib and flat 80char machine gun responses in the literature thread irk me.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
The chatty posts in the literature threads don't bother me at all, it's nice when there's a long considered post of course but it doesn't always have to be like that, sometimes you just want to chat in real time about whatever pops into your head, or just have a laugh, there's room for both.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Transposing the story to Vietnam for Apocalypse Now was such a genius idea - the idiot pilgrims blindly shooting their Winchesters from the hip into the jungle
Have you seen the River Badge on Hey Duggee? There's a bit in it that's based on the climax of that film, complete with a twitchy-eyed rabbit who's obviously meant to be a coked-up Dennis Hopper.
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Benny Bunter

Well-known member
@you what do you think about getting into the habit of reading out loud or moving your lips as you read, which I mentioned earlier? I started doing it with poetry but I do it with prose now too. I think it helps with memory and overhearing yourself really helps with understanding - Harold Bloom talked about it quite a lot as a good reading habit. My memory isn't that great and I'd like to improve it but maybe at this late stage I'll only have limited success.
 

you

Well-known member
@you what do you think about getting into the habit of reading out loud or moving your lips as you read, which I mentioned earlier? I started doing it with poetry but I do it with prose now too. I think it helps with memory and overhearing yourself really helps with understanding - Harold Bloom talked about it quite a lot as a good reading habit. My memory isn't that great and I'd like to improve it but maybe at this late stage I'll only have limited success.

It's a very interesting question. In Mallarmé's communiqué with Nietzsche (nice lilt) the former suggested that poetry was the higher form of experiencing art because rhythm, in solitary reading, was silent, emerging and being perceived within the soul. But I don't buy this - it's a bit Platonic, it disembodies experience and intellect.

Neuromotor paths are really important - movement, dance, etc deeply affect how we engage with a material. We all know this, music 'sounds better in a car', many musics are amazing to dance to but the experience is very different in solitary sedate listening. How many times in seminars or reading groups does a line suddenly pop out and change the text only when it is vocalised? And of course, one way to proof read one's work is to go back and read it out aloud. I do do this with books, if a passage excites me I revisit and read aloud.

But to cultivate it as a habit (that one can or cannot break?) seems too acute an approach. You'd sacrifice speed. Also, some texts tend to lend themselves to internalised reading (i.e. not engaging motor skills) I feel... My verdict: like anything concerned with the self, it's great to do but cannot be the only method, so exercise moderation. Otherwise you risk palour and a creepy handshake.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
I don't mind sacrificing speed tbh if it means I understand it and remember it better, you can't read everything. I don't have it as an unbreakable habit or anything, but i've found it really helpful since I started consciously doing it a lot more
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
As well as the neuromotor paths, muscle memory aspect, reading out loud is about channeling strange voices through your own voice. It helps you to trace it back and get inside the mind of the writer, (or at least that is the illusion). And obviously when you're reading a novel, something dramatic with different characters and dialogue it helps to differentiate between the different voices. I don't think it's absolutely essential or anything cos you can do it internally too, but it's a useful tool and I reckon you could probably apply it with success to pretty much all different types of writing.
 

linebaugh

Well-known member
Every sentence is incredibly confusing. The metaphors never seem to pay off even though the structure is right. The vibe I get is of a herculean effort which ultimately fails to be great literature
Did you ever finish it? Im reading now and getting this exact experience of mismatched metaphors. You double take when you come across it because you have two things that make sense independently yet you dont feel like youve read a whole 'sentence' when it comes to a close
 
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linebaugh

Well-known member
And some of these sentences are extremely high effort but dont seem like theyre meant to be? That clause Ive got highlighted there killed me. Why speak like that?20230716_123905.jpg
 

linebaugh

Well-known member
But all and all Im enjoying it quite a bit. Reading it 'aloud' in my head is how Im doing it and find when Im in tune with it the sentences actually have a pretty high hit rate. Most of the book is him eulogizing on basic elements so some of the more questionable metaphors feel like an improv comedian trying to break through the mental wall by saying anything at all. Revving up the engine
 
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linebaugh

Well-known member
Today I read the chapter all about why the color white is so enchanting. But it wasnt really about why, it was more him reiterrating how enchanting it was with colorful language. It was a great chapter not because i learned anything about why the color white was so enchanting but because he really had me agreeing that the color white is, in fact, a crazy color. The whole book sort of works this way
 
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linebaugh

Well-known member
It reminds me of the movie Sorcerer which really doesnt have much to say but is executed so well and is so affecting that your compelled to do the thinking for it.
 

linebaugh

Well-known member
And as a sort of aside, I do sometimes wonder if I get a sort of literary stolkholm syndrome when it comes to certain dense prose styles. Am i enjoyng the writing or am I enjoying that I understand the writing in the same way I enjoy finding the write awnser on the crossword
 
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