Hell in a Handcart: Music as a Symptom of Moral Decay

[thirdform]

Americans can never truly be communists for instance. they are socialised to be the most nationalistic people on earth.

 

[sadmanbarty]

 

[thirdform]

you can't really have a Stormzy like figure in the states, mainly cos Stormzy will be forgotten about in 5-10 years time by the majority of the white UK. Americans need their star rappers to delude themselves that they are the multicultural voice of the world when in reality a lot of it more than black separatism per se is gang capitalism. a lot of modern hip hop is unthinkable without organised crime, just like dance music was even in acid house days.

 

[thirdform]

ditto. my point exactly.. he can't say 'hang them, cunts the lot of em' about police. It's not acceptable over there.

 

[luka]

 

[sadmanbarty]

 

[thirdform]

yeah but that's not anti-american sentiment. it's not even political proper.

 

[luka]

 

[sadmanbarty]

luke was talking about loyalty to your culture before and i think there is an element of feeling that political discourse is by and large a middle class parlour game. my parents social media is just awash with people complaining about brexit for example.

so you could even go so far as to (incredibly "problematically") argue that artists from certain backgrounds venturing into that kind of discourse are turning their backs on where they came from.

 

[droid]

Equally, an American Garnett Silk is inconceivable. Too earnest, too pure.


Amazing to think this shares a riddim with Boom bye bye.

 

[thirdform]

fair cop, guv, but who knows about Boosie Baddaz apart from rap fans?

 

[sadmanbarty]

luke was talking about loyalty to your culture before and i think there is an element of feeling that political discourse is by and large a middle class parlour game. my parents social media is just awash with people complaining about brexit for example.

so you could even go so far as to (incredibly "problematically") argue that artists from certain backgrounds venturing into that kind of discourse are turning their backs on where they came from.

 

[DannyL]

But also what you are describing are liberal politics whereas when rap music was political it was, as often as not, black seperatist, and as often as not, socially conservative. It wasn't at all acceptable to liberals, it was completely beyond the pale.

One of the things about hip-hops black capitalism or whatever, is that it is consistent with a long standing line of black seperatist thought. It is in line with the Nation of Islam's teachings for instance. The idea is to become self-reliant as individuals and as a community. Only once you have money are you able to gain some leverage against the oppressor.

Spot on. Loads of this music PE in particular got a massive pass 'cos only a few ever really examined the politics. When they did, it was all about a separate black state. There's a crossover with Islamic conservatism as well, see something like Jeru's "You're Playing Yourself". You can also see this impulse in the creation of complete new comic book/superhero identities like Wu Tang. History as is, is too painful - it must be escaped.
s

 

[luka]

What I was saying is there is a difference between we want to be treated fairly and equally within your system and we want to secede from your system entirely we don't want to live in a society with white norms and white values your universality is a self-serving myth.

 

[thirdform]

What I was saying is there is a difference between we want to be treated fairly and equally within your system and we want to secede from your system entirely we don't want to live in a society with white norms and white values your universality is a self-serving myth.

on the surface yes. though by the 90s the NOI was becoming very much fringe (especially so in black american muslim theology) nothing like its dominance in the 60s-70s. these new generation of rappers are unlikely to have any folk memory of the noi in any tangible form to put to music.

And of course the story of noi's collusion with FBI is a well known one. aesthetics can't really be politics etc.

 

[luka]

on the surface yes. though by the 90s the NOI was becoming very much fringe (especially so in black american muslim theology) nothing like its dominance in the 60s-70s. these new generation of rappers are unlikely to have any folk memory of the noi in any tangible form to put to music.

And of course the story of noi's collusion with FBI is a well known one. aesthetics can't really be politics etc.

Im talking about the last time rap music was political in any meaningful way. I'm not talking about today.

 

[thirdform]

yeah and I'm saying the black separatism preached by the noi seems hopelessly antiquated to most black americans living in contemporary capitalism today. history hasn't absolved that strand. not cos its cringey or jazzy or whatever.

EDIT: bad choice of words.

 

[thirdform]

even one of the founders of identity politics, lacking little connection to any social base as traditionally understood came out for Sanders the other.

The old dying, but the new just refuses to be born.

 

[luka]

Well I won't try and speak for most black Americans living in contemporary capitalism today.

 

[thirdform]

Well I won't try and speak for most black Americans living in contemporary capitalism today.

alright, when you put it like that it makes me look like an unreconstructed racist.


bad choice of words, etc.

I just think it's an easy shortcut to saying blaming the majors or whatever. music is always behind the development of the material used to make it and in that regard even the reality that Jeru etc were talking about in the 90s was rapidly being phased out.

We might even be witnessing the death of hip hop (as traditionally understood) not that i wanna get into those hip hop as surrogate alt rock for todays generation etc...