Cancellations

[luka]

true, it's been sliding trumpwards for a few years until made some big jumps back with metoo, blm,

its stretched in both directions

 

[john eden]

@Mr. Tea is your argument that people being sacked for spouting nonsense is a new thing?

 

[line b]

which i guess can be said to be proportional, as i mentioned above, to the severity of his offeces and the available evidence, his reputation is in tatters apart from with the orthodox republican headbangers, did his wife leave him?

(obvs i dfer to actual US people who know about this)

Kavanaughs wife is still with him. His reputation is in tatters among circles he was never going to interact with anyway.

 

[sufi]

I've given them already but feel free to ignore them. As I said, one of them was in an article you posted. If you want more, you could try googling "people fired for tweets" - there are lists upon lists upon lists.

people fired for tweets - Google Search

www.google.com

Some of them are examples of people tweeting opinions, complaints or jokes that anyone here would agree are extremely objectionable, while others are more open to interpretation. Now if you were taking the position that "Yes people can be fired for a single remark they've made, and I think that's fine because in at least some cases they will have deserved it for being racist/homophobic etc., and if in other cases it's an overreaction or misinterpretation then it's tough tits, it's collateral damage", that would be one thing. But you're simply claiming that a phenomenon doesn't exist when it clearly does.

In fact I get the impression you're arguing in bad faith here so I'm out.

Did you read the actual legal cases i referred you to? I don't consider googling newsbites a way to improve my understanding of the world
the phenomenon exists, i concede that

@Mr. Tea is your argument that people being sacked for spouting nonsense is a new thing?

he's arguing that people shouldnt be sacked for tweeting racist tweets

 

[sufi]

Kavanaughs wife is still with him. His reputation is in tatters among circles he was never going to interact with anyway.

i think that's an achievement still

Q: Is metoo part of cancel culture, i'd say most definitely, but if you think not then ok i guess, what the difference?
Q: Are there some good examples of "collateral damage" from #metoo? To what extent do they undermine the movement, i'd say not enough to cancel metoo??

 

[pattycakes_]

but pretending that you can just get sacked for thought crime or saying the wrong thing is not actually true

How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

The unique 21st-century misery of the online shaming victim.

www.nytimes.com

this and many more similar stories can be found in this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_You've_Been_Publicly_Shamed

Cancellations seem to come from a similar place to the desire for the death penalty in England, imo. There's an emphasis on suffering and punishment in the English psyche. People want to drag others through the streets and break them and don't really care what happens after that.

it's not exclusive to england. it's universal. but it's probably safe to assume that the english speaking countries and all the other major historic colonial superpowers, along with their ex colonies will be pretty high ranking. and as the world continues to spiral the appetite will grow.

It’s not like anyone on the left spends hours producing texts, lectures, videos, books, blogs, has every day discussions etc. No we never want to talk to people or persuade them.

i think it was more a reference to daily discourse between people online, down the pub, in the street etc.

That's precisely my point
same with the tories here in uk at the moment.
that's why we need to further refine our techniques

i'm with padraig on this, it's captain kurtz territory.

to be clear (for Mr Tea) because it can rain on the powerful just as it can rain on the powerless, the powerful are much much more worried about CC, it's an equaliser, and as such is not politicallly neutral

doesn't this contradict what you were saying in the first quote of yours in this post?

 

[sufi]

Did you read the actual legal cases i referred you to? I don't consider googling newsbites a way to improve my understanding of the world
the phenomenon exists, i concede that

he's arguing that people shouldnt be sacked for tweeting racist tweets

Actually @Mr. Tea's google links https://www.google.com/search?q=people+fired+for+tweets are all about people who got sacked quite fairly as far as i can see.

1. TV Presenters sacked for airing their views on political issues on twitter it's probably in their contracts as sackable, they are public figures
2. people saying how their employer sucks on twitter ... will likely get sacked,
3. if you tweet something racist or really offensive, then i think your employer might no longer want to employ you,
4. the only exception i can see is maybe the well known story of justine sacco who tweeted something racist and stupid,

or did i miss any glaring injustices there?

Obviously google is the bottom of the barrel, and those websites are loving to repeat the offensive tweets, its almost as if...

 

[sufi]

Actually @Mr. Tea's google links https://www.google.com/search?q=people+fired+for+tweets are all about people who got sacked quite fairly as far as i can see.

1. TV Presenters sacked for airing their views on political issues on twitter it's probably in their contracts as sackable, they are public figures
2. people saying how their employer sucks on twitter ... will likely get sacked,
3. if you tweet something racist or really offensive, then i think your employer might no longer want to employ you,
4. the only exception i can see is maybe the well known story of justine sacco who tweeted something racist and stupid,

or did i miss any glaring injustices there?

Obviously google is the bottom of the barrel, and those websites are loving to repeat the offensive tweets, its almost as if...

How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

The unique 21st-century misery of the online shaming victim.

www.nytimes.com

this and many more similar stories can be found in this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_You've_Been_Publicly_Shamed



it's not exclusive to england. it's universal. but it's probably safe to assume that the english speaking countries and all the other major historic colonial superpowers, along with their ex colonies will be pretty high ranking. and as the world continues to spiral the appetite will grow.



i think it was more a reference to daily discourse between people online, down the pub, in the street etc.



i'm with padraig on this, it's captain kurtz territory.



doesn't this contradict what you were saying in the first quote of yours in this post?

Justine Sacco was in Mr Tea's links actually - she tweeted a stupid racist tweet, but yeah she was treated horribly, by the crowd as well as her bosses, but she has become a really well known totem for the anti-cancel culture cause, and i don't think it's representative,

 

[pattycakes_]

the Jon Ronson book goes into more examples.

 

[pattycakes_]

the cultural sword of damocles is a bad look, imo.

the first paragraph of the NYT article sums up why pretty well. people enjoy it. it's become a sport. we're back to throwing christians to the lions

 

[sufi]

the cultural sword of damocles is a bad look, imo.

the first paragraph of the NYT article sums up why pretty well. people enjoy it. it's become a sport. we're back to throwing christians to the lions

But I don't think it can function without the index offense. I suppose that if you think that we are all culpable, then i disagree - you do have to be Lady Hale to make it to the head of the supreme court, whereas if someone (Mr Tea) dobs me in to my employer for spliffing, i'll probably be OK

 

[entertainment]

Making it about material consequences in specific cases is a red herring.

It's the general mood that calls for concern, this stifling, cold atmosphere. Where heterodoxy is made suspect, originality is inhibited. It's in the rhetoric, the little comments that leave an aftertaste, the particular ethos that is appealed to, it's in the jokes and the memes, the sardonic jabs, the in-group moral fellatio. The overall flatness and monotony of expression.

 

[pattycakes_]

it's killing independent george

 

[pattycakes_]

But I don't think it can function without the index offense. I suppose that if you think that we are all culpable, then i disagree - you do have to be Lady Hale to make it to the head of the supreme court, whereas if someone (Mr Tea) dobs me in to my employer for spliffing, i'll probably be OK

not sure we're on the same page here

 

[sufi]

Justine Sacco was in Mr Tea's links actually - she tweeted a stupid racist tweet, but yeah she was treated horribly, by the crowd as well as her bosses, but she has become a really well known totem for the anti-cancel culture cause, and i don't think it's representative,

i followed that story at the time, but just re-read the article (also by Jon Ronson). You can't do a tweet like that and expect to keep your job in PR, perhaps she was naive and perhaps post-BLM is a different hindsight, but her job is one that requires communication skills, she blew it with a misjudged edgy quip. it was random that she blew up on social media, but not an unfair sacking imho

 

[sufi]

Making it about material consequences in specific cases is a red herring.

yes

It's the general mood that calls for concern, this stifling, cold atmosphere. Where heterodoxy is made suspect, originality is inhibited. It's in the rhetoric, the little comments that leave an aftertaste, the particular ethos that is appealed to, it's in the jokes and the memes, the sardonic jabs, the in-group moral fellatio. The overall flatness and monotony of expression.

the chilling effect
as Luke was saying
Isnt this the old political correctness gone mad argument?

 

[pattycakes_]

As a PR person, of course it was stupid. But it's not the sacking part that bothers me.

 

[sufi]

not sure we're on the same page here

i mean that it's not a morally neutral process, whatever we're calling it, it affects people (unlike Lady Hale) with shady pasts more, even if there are false accusations,

 

[sufi]

As a PR person, of course it was stupid. But it's not the sacking part that bothers me.

yah i agree the herd mentality ganging up on a woman was nasty.
but i don't think that means that social mass cant be effective and successful and just,
i don't think you're saying that the mob against Justine Sacco was somehow planned or directed - the fact is tht this medium exists, and we're all part of this online mob, we can't wish it away

 

[sufi]

it's killing independent george

eh?

Right. In the Ronson book he makes it clear that all of those people did something wrong. It's just how the public dealt with it afterwards.

we should invite him along to discuss