padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
well, I'm not interested - ever - in a blanket "this doesn't apply to you so you can't criticize it"
I think that's counterproductive for a number of reasons, and that it actually stifles acceptance
The Culture War
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I think that's counterproductive for a number of reasons, and that it actually stifles acceptance
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
indeed
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
but, if it doesn't apply to you, you have two obligations in making your criticisms
1) if you're not familiar, familiarize yourself. don't speak from a place of ignorance.
2) practice basic empathy
1) if you're not familiar, familiarize yourself. don't speak from a place of ignorance.
2) practice basic empathy
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I definitely don't think something is automatically better just because someone says it is more progressive or inclusive
as I said above, I don't see what improvement "womxn" makes over "women" in this case
if you make a general effort to be respectful, have empathy and a willingness to apologize for mistakes or clear up misunderstandings, you'll do fine
I find those attributes lacking around here whenever this gets brought up (which is never by me, for the record)
as I said above, I don't see what improvement "womxn" makes over "women" in this case
if you make a general effort to be respectful, have empathy and a willingness to apologize for mistakes or clear up misunderstandings, you'll do fine
I find those attributes lacking around here whenever this gets brought up (which is never by me, for the record)
constant escape
winter withered, warm
Yeah, and I think thats perfectly reasonable. In a sound and settled frame of mind, it should be easy to appreciate a sentiment of "why play a role in causing even the slightest of unnecessary anguishes?", a sentiment that perhaps gets lost in the twitter trenches (twenches?). Then again, I'm certainly not at the front lines.
Anyway, its refreshing to actually communicate about this in an honest and positive way.
Anyway, its refreshing to actually communicate about this in an honest and positive way.
constant escape
winter withered, warm
Do you think this stuff can be conveyed, in its rawest form, to some of the more... ahem, outspoken opposition to cultural revisionism / "cancel culture"?
As of now, I think it can. The first step might be the step off of what appears to them as the high horse or morality. Clearly the more adamant among them might prove too resistant, but I think plenty of them feel like they're on some kind of defensive, and could very well capitulate to terms that don't paint them as bigots - which might involve a certain leniency from our side. Then again, the whole waters are murky here, tough to see whats what.
As of now, I think it can. The first step might be the step off of what appears to them as the high horse or morality. Clearly the more adamant among them might prove too resistant, but I think plenty of them feel like they're on some kind of defensive, and could very well capitulate to terms that don't paint them as bigots - which might involve a certain leniency from our side. Then again, the whole waters are murky here, tough to see whats what.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
well, telling people they're bad and/or stupid is generally not a successful strategy
I'd frame it in terms of empathy, always. commonality. desire for respect and acceptance is universal.
I realize that's not always easy to do, but it's always more productive in the long run.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
empathy isn't easy. if you haven't lived something, it takes real effort to reach a place of empathy.
being open to listening and internalizing other people's experience
being willing to critically examine your own attitudes and beliefs
not in a guilty sense, I should be very clear
that's huge part of what's wrong the the current discourse, the misplaced focus on guilt and assuaging guilt
guilt is almost always a useless emotion (except in a preventative sense, and even then there are better incentives)
where the focus should be on empathy and self-improvement
not "I am a racist, and I must atone for it" but more like "I'm examining my beliefs and trying to treat other people better"
being open to listening and internalizing other people's experience
being willing to critically examine your own attitudes and beliefs
not in a guilty sense, I should be very clear
that's huge part of what's wrong the the current discourse, the misplaced focus on guilt and assuaging guilt
guilt is almost always a useless emotion (except in a preventative sense, and even then there are better incentives)
where the focus should be on empathy and self-improvement
not "I am a racist, and I must atone for it" but more like "I'm examining my beliefs and trying to treat other people better"
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
proximity helps with empathy - i.e. the classic tale of people overcoming their prejudice because they have a gay son or whatever
but not everyone has proximity, and so you have to cultivate the ability to internalize other people's experiences
I don't think I really became even half-decent at it til quite recently, with in the last couple years
but not everyone has proximity, and so you have to cultivate the ability to internalize other people's experiences
I don't think I really became even half-decent at it til quite recently, with in the last couple years
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
anyway, idk if that's a applicable strategy but it's what I think
I am grateful to have come to my beliefs over a long period time and basically through self-discovery
rather than the hothouse of college campus, social media
when I was your age - early 20s, right? - I was, looking back on it, very fucking ignorant
and that's after growing up with liberal parents and spending my formative years totally immersed in the no sexism/racism/homophobia diy punk rock
I am grateful to have come to my beliefs over a long period time and basically through self-discovery
rather than the hothouse of college campus, social media
when I was your age - early 20s, right? - I was, looking back on it, very fucking ignorant
and that's after growing up with liberal parents and spending my formative years totally immersed in the no sexism/racism/homophobia diy punk rock
constant escape
winter withered, warm
And yet, it seems to be the prevalent one.
And good point re: guilt. It seems to be a vitriol without much benefit to anyone. It can even lead one to feel a bit victimized themselves, which only complicates matters more.
I wonder how well we could send out messages like this, distancing ourselves from the promptest of guilt-mongerers without appearing to them as their enemies. To some of the more extreme partisans, any attempt at reconciling with the other side registers as treason - but can this be overcome?
Yeah, 22.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
are you familiar with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in post-apartheid South Africa? I've always been awed by the insane courage of it
after decades of the ugliest racism imaginable, to say "we can either let the country drown in blood, or we can forgo vengeance, we can swallow that bitterness as the price of a chance to drag that ugliness into the light and try to somehow move past it"
and they fucking did it. not to say it was perfect by any means, but they went and did it. not on Twitter, in the actual real world.
they were partially forced to it by necessity, they couldn't have done a Nuremberg even if they wanted to
but still, Mandela etc they had to proactively decide to swallow that bitterness, to try to move past it
I suppose that's a bit far afield from crafting a message of empathy in the culture wars but, still, if they can overcome that partisanship
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
but more on message, I would just be direct. that's how I am, though.
say guilt is useless, the focus should be on empathy and self-improvement
guilt is negative, empathy is positive. self-improvement is positive. treating people better is an integral part of being your best self.
it's the easiest thing in the world to shout at people and tell them they're stupid
if people on your side tell you you're a traitor, tell them to fuck off in so many words
that's my advice, anyway
say guilt is useless, the focus should be on empathy and self-improvement
guilt is negative, empathy is positive. self-improvement is positive. treating people better is an integral part of being your best self.
it's the easiest thing in the world to shout at people and tell them they're stupid
if people on your side tell you you're a traitor, tell them to fuck off in so many words
that's my advice, anyway
constant escape
winter withered, warm
Thanks for the advice. I haven't heard of truth commissions, nor do I know much about South Africa, pre or post apartheid, but it seems to be a good example of this.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
oh don't thank me bud, I was using advice reflexively I guess. it's just what I would do.
and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is - I believe - the most prominent/large-scale example of restorative justice
which seems like a more productive direction than cancellation. it's also proactive rather than reactive.
actually, tho my finger is hardly on the pulse, I bet there are people out there doing just that, tho perhaps they aren't the loudest voices
and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is - I believe - the most prominent/large-scale example of restorative justice
which seems like a more productive direction than cancellation. it's also proactive rather than reactive.
actually, tho my finger is hardly on the pulse, I bet there are people out there doing just that, tho perhaps they aren't the loudest voices
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
something I should be expand on here
it's obvious from the most cursory examination of history that the reality of gender has never fit neatly into "man" and "woman"
in some cultures this was recognized - for example, the various conceptions of "two-spirit" (the modern catch-all term) among various Native American peoples, or hijras in South Asia. that's not say these all correspond exactly to modern conceptions of transgender, non-binary etc, just that they were, and are, acknowledgments of gender outside of just cisgendered man and woman.
in some cultures it was not. regardless, such people exist and have existed in all human cultures, whether there were terms for them or not.
and without terms people are written out of history, or rather they can't be written into it
so maybe you can argue over which specific terms and how they're used, but this idea of an imposition of something artificial is totally ridiculous
it is instead an extremely belated but still welcome acknowledgment of a reality of human existence that has always been, will always be
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
and there are examples in European history, of course, they're just harder to find
Christina, Queen of Sweden is a famous one. someone we'd probably conceive of nowadays as gender-nonconforming.
luka
Well-known member
If there is a disembodied voice from on high telling you to stop using a word which for better or for worse has been in use for twenty billion years and substitute it with a word which you can't even pronounce..... It's not happening. You can't can't eradicate prejudice and change by making these interventions into language.
shiels
_
I’ve a version of this which is about leaving room for people to be cunts. Not dehumanising them with purity. Trying to understand power dynamics and lived experience without totally lionising or falling into the victim and oppressor, parent child thing. It’s an important part of empathy for me, allowing people to be dickheads. And involves self criticism, seeing yourself as a dickhead too. I would go as far to say that taking people’s monstrosities away is abuse!