Jack Law's Lord of the Rings Thread.

vershy versh

Well-known member
The grainy display of the thing on that ridge is etched into my memory. A prime example of what Mark talks about in The Weird and the Eerie when he talks about the eerie and presence/absence.

"The eerie concerns the most fundamental metaphysical questions one
could pose, questions to do with existence and non-existence: Why is there
something here when there should be nothing? Why is there nothing here
when there should be something?
"

 
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yyaldrin

in je ogen waait de wind
i'm watching the second season of the series and it's very frustrating to watch because somehow they turned
sauron into a shapeshifting character and so he can just walk around everywhere and nobody seems to be able to detect him even though he's doing bad everywhere. the worst is that idiot celebrimbor who is just retarded it seems and is ruining everything for everyone in middle earth.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Not watched the latest episodes but sauron's success is basically predicted on the other characters being idiots. It's a shame cos I like the concept of him as this insidious flattering villain who tempts others with their deepest desires. It's always more effective when a villain is acting nice to a man's face and stabbing a man in the back at the same time.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
I'm going sooo slowly through this, Stridergorn is about to take them out into the wild.

I'm loving it though. You can take Tolkien for task for any number of things but he's a great storyteller and (for me) a surprisingly good writer.

Best book ever? Certainly up there with Ulysses and the Master and Commander series.
 

sus

Moderator
I read a comment the other day where someone was moaning about how "world-building" and "lore" has ruined a lot of contemporary genre storytelling because this fixation on explaining everything sucks the life out of any world you might build.

One of the examples given was the weight of history on the characters in the first Star Wars trilogy. You had things like the Clone Wars mentioned in passing and left to your imagination then Hollywood spent the next 40+ years trying to squeeze the juice out of every throwaway line of dialogue.
This thread?

 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Two negatives from yesterday's reading

1. Sorry to be Mr PC Police but there's undoubtedly a bit where Frodo spots a slant-eyed "swarthy" southerner (suspected villain) peeping out of a window and thinks "he's more than half goblin" or something.

2. Spoiler alert but the fact that all the ponies escape and don't die in the barren wastes etc. I don't mind if that's the case but having to be told about it... I dunno, it reminds you that this is for kids really. Interestingly, I've noticed that tolkien slips into this slightly whimsical mode when he's talking about animals.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Two negatives from yesterday's reading

1. Sorry to be Mr PC Police but there's undoubtedly a bit where Frodo spots a slant-eyed "swarthy" southerner (suspected villain) peeping out of a window and thinks "he's more than half goblin" or something.
Yeah, regrettably there's quite a lot of this wince-making sort of thing. They're often not only "swarthy" or "sallow", but also "squint-eyed", you'll notice.

I don't think Tolkien was consciously racist in a way that a lot of his contemporaries and near-contemporaries among fantasy or adventure-story authors were (compare him to H. Rider Haggard, Robert E. Howard, Jack London, Doyle, or - obviously - Lovecraft), it's just that these kinds of ideas were in the air and the water when he was a child and a young man and it would have taken a conscious effort for an English-speaking white person born in the late 19th century to reject them.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
It also would make sense for Frodo et al to be racist, given that they live in an isolated village, pre-TV and internet.

In a modern version of this same story, ofc, the author would have to make it clear that Frodo was being a silly little nazi in some way. (OTOH presumably in this world a half-goblin man is POSSIBLE).

Back to the plus side, the very detailed descriptions of the landscape they traverse, which funnily enough is exactly the thing I found unbearably dull when I first tried to read this, gives the world they're in a real palpability that you don't get in other fantasy worlds.

This really serves a story about a long, arduous journey through a perilous mysterious landscape.
 
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Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Came across this withering review of Fellowship by Edmund Wilson last night and I must admit it was resounding around my head as I laboured through "the council of elrond" chapter, which is tedious in the extreme, consisting of long speeches about XXril son of YYril etc. and all those archaic inversions of speech.

The most distinguished of Tolkien's admirers and the most conspicuous of his defenders has been Mr. W. H. Auden. That Auden is a master of English verse and a well-equipped critic of verse, no one, as they say, will dispute. It is significant, then, that he comments on the badness of Tolkien's verse - there is a great deal of poetry in The Lord of the Rings. Mr. Auden is apparently quite insensitive - through lack of interest in the other department.- to the fact that Tolkien's prose is just as bad. Prose and verse are on the same level of professorial amateurishness. What I believe has misled Mr. Auden is his own special preoccupation with the legendary theme of the Quest. He has written a book about the literature of the Quest; he has experimented with the theme himself in a remarkable sequence of sonnets; and it is to be hoped that he will do something with it on an even larger scale. In the meantime - as sometimes happens with works that fall in with one's interests - he no doubt so overrates The Lord of the Rings because he reads into it something that he means to write himself. It is indeed the tale of a Quest, but, to the reviewer, an extremely unrewarding one. The hero has no serious temptations; is lured by no insidious enchantments, perplexed by few problems. What we get is a simple confrontation - in more or less the traditional terms of British melodrama - of the Forces of Evil with the Forces of Good, the remote and alien villain with the plucky little home-grown hero. There are streaks of imagination: the ancient tree-spirits, the Ents, with their deep eyes, twiggy beards, rumbly voices; the Elves, whose nobility and beauty is elusive and not quite human. But even these are rather clumsily handled. There is never much development in the episodes; you simply go on getting more of the same thing. Dr. Tolkien has little skill at narrative and no instinct for literary form. The characters talk a story-book language that might have come out of Howard Pyle, and as personalities they do not impose themselves. At the end of this long romance, I had still no conception of the wizard Gandalph, who is a cardinal figure, had never been able to visualize him at all. For the most part such characterizations as Dr. Tolkien is able to contrive are perfectly stereotyped: Frodo the good little Englishman, Samwise, his dog-like servant, who talks lower-class and respectful, and never deserts his master. These characters who are no characters are involved in interminable adventures the poverty of invention displayed in which is, it seems to me, almost pathetic. On the country in which the Hobbits, the Elves, the Ents and the other Good People live, the Forces of Evil are closing in, and they have to band together to save it. The hero is the Hobbit called Frodo who has become possessed of a ring that Sauron, the King of the Enemy, wants (that learned reptilian suggestion - doesn't it give you a goosefleshy feeling?). In spite of the author's disclaimer, the struggle for the ring does seem to have some larger significance. This ring, if one continues to carry it, confers upon one special powers, but it is felt to become heavier and heavier; it exerts on one a sinister influence that one has to brace oneself to resist. The problem is for Frodo to get rid of it before he can succumb to this influence.

NOW, this situation does create interest; it does seem to have possibilities. One looks forward to a queer dilemma, a new kind of hair-breadth escape, in which Frodo, in the Enemy's kingdom, will find himself half-seduced into taking over the enemy's point of view, so that the realm of shadows and horrors will come to seem to him, once he is in it, once he is strong in the power of the ring, a plausible and pleasant place, and he will narrowly escape the danger of becoming a monster himself. But these bugaboos are not magnetic; they are feeble and rather blank; one does not feel they have any real power. The Good People simply say « Boo » to them. There are Black Riders, of whom everyone is terrified but who never seem anything but specters. There are dreadful hovering birds-think of it, horrible birds of prey! There are ogreish disgusting Orcs, who, however, rarely get to the point of committing any overt acts. There is a giant female spider - a dreadfu1 creepy-crawly spider! - who lives in a dark cave and eats people. What one misses in all these terrors is any trace of concrete reality. The preternatural, to be effective, should be given some sort of solidity, a real presence, recognizable features - like Gulliver, like Gogol, like Poe; not like those phantom horrors of Algernon Blackwood which prove so disappointing after the travel-book substantiality of the landscapes in which he evokes them. Tolkien's horrors resemble these in their lack of real contact with their victims, who dispose of them as we do of the horrors in dreams by simply pushing them or puffing them away. As for Sauron, the ruler of Mordor (doesn't the very name have a shuddery sound.) who concentrates in his person everything that is threatening the Shire, the build-up for him goes on through three volumes. He makes his first, rather promising, appearance as a terrible fire-rimmed yellow eye seen in a water-mirror. But this is as far as we ever get. Once Sauron's realm is invaded, we think we are going to meet him; but he still remains nothing but a burning eye scrutinizing all that occurs from the window of a remote dark tower. This might, of course, be made effective; but actually it is not; we never feel Sauron's power. And the climax, to which we have been working up through exactly nine hundred and ninety-nine large close-printed pages, when it comes, proves extremely flat. The ring is at last got rid of by being dropped into a fiery crater, and the kingdom of Sauron « topples » in a brief and banal earthquake that sets fire to everything and burns it up, and so releases the author from the necessity of telling the reader what exactly was so terrible there. Frodo has come to the end of his Quest, but the reader has remained untouched by the wounds and fatigues of his journey. An impotence of imagination seems to me to sap the whole story. The wars are never dynamic; the ordeals give no sense of strain; the fair ladies would not stir a heartbeat; the horrors would not hurt a fly.

Now, how is it that these long-winded volumes of what looks to this reviewer like balderdash have elicited such tributes as those above? The answer is, I believe, that certain people - especially, perhaps, in Britain - have a lifelong appetite for juvenile trash. They would not accept adult trash, but, confronted with the pre-teen-age article, they revert to the mental phase which delighted in Elsie Dinsmore and Little Lord Fauntleroy and which seems to have made of Billy Bunter, in England, almost a national figure. You can see it in the tone they fall into when they talk about Tolkien in print: they bubble, they squeal, they coo; they go on about Malory and Spenser - both of whom have a charm and a distinction that Tolkien has never touched.

As for me, if we must read about imaginary kingdoms, give me James Branch Cabell's Poictesme. He at least writes for grown-up people, and he does not present the drama of life as a showdown between Good People and Goblins. He can cover more ground in an episode that lasts only three pages than Tolkien is able to in one of this twenty-page chapters, and he can create a more disquieting impression by a reference to something that is never described than Tolkien through his whole demonology.
 
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Corpsey

bandz ahoy
A rebuttal I found to Wilson on Reddit (who says its all troglodytic racists in there?)

Tolkien's a weird one. I can't honestly say I can actively disagree very much either with the assessments of the qualities of his work from a purely literary standpoint (such as this one) or even from a more political standpoint (ie Michael Moorcock's Epic Pooh essay) but I still adore The Lord of the Rings, and I think both lines of criticism are somewhat misguided.

The thing about The Lord of the Rings is that it's something that, through a quirk of finding the right cultural moment, ended up having a massive popularity and resonance that it wasn't really seeking; there really are very few 20th century books that can be said to have had more of a widespread and lasting cultural impact than LotR, when you consider culture as a whole (rather than just the rarefied strata of literary fiction). But really, the Lord of the Rings is something quite different; a deeply eccentric and ambitious work by a man who wrote, I think, far more for his own pleasure than for anyone else's. In some ways I think it is almost a work of outsider fiction.

I really think it's worth understanding the context and intention with the Lord of the Rings, because it makes the work make a great deal more sense. Most of the apparent deficiencies of Lord of the Rings become instantly understandable if you've ever read Anglo-Saxon or Old Icelandic literature, which is what he was trying to imitate. Works like Gísla saga Súrssonar or Eiríks saga rauða or Beowulf aren't exactly brimming with intense psychological realism. That's because Tolkien is essentially writing in an entirely different literary mode based on these ancient forms. In Northrop Frye's schema he's mostly working in the Mythic or Romantic modes; his supporting characters tend to be heroes in the mould of characters like Beowulf or most saga protagonists. In this sense, I particularly think the complaints that the Lord of the Rings is juvenile are deeply misguided. It's a terrible criterion of judgement to hold them to; Tolkien was not trying to create an 'adult' work by modern criteria. Apart from the antiquated language, you will find nothing over the head of a seven year old in Malory or Spenser either, really* (and not much in Chaucer or Bocaccio, for that matter, if you leave out the smutty jokes). The decision about the marketing of the book was more down to Stanley Unwin (and the public reaction) than Tolkien, and Wilson does at least say that he thinks "The pretentiousness is all on the part of Dr. Tolkien's infatuated admirers."

I think Tolkiens work is complicated enormously though, and made much more interesting than as a simple recreation of a vanished literary form both by the way the constructed languages, poetry and the false document technique function, and also because of the way the characters of the hobbits are used, as outsiders from (essentially) a later epoch of literary and chronological history, operating at least partly in a different, lower mode. Even when they become heroes in their own right they never truly become 'superhuman' in the way other characters are. You can argue that the character development of the hobbits is flat, or that it is still broadly in a mythic mode (Perhaps particularly for Merry and Pippin), but it definitely contrasts, to, say, Aragorn (who is a big damn hero from the get-go). I also think personally that Smeagol stands quite well beside figures like Grendel as a tragic outsider/monster sort. There are some rather modern themes as well which are quite absent from the mythic sources, to my knowledge; the corrupting nature of power and self-destruction through addiction, for example, which I think are actually integrated extremely well, all things considered. I think the major merits though lie in its strength as a sheer tour de force of imagination.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Interesting fact: Tolkien was not "Dr. Tolkien." He was awarded a professorship without ever taking a PhD.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
How could anybody be so tasteless as to write that coming out of a supposedly wise and dignified character's mouth?

Sigh.

I'm looking forward to them getting back on the road.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Here's Auden's take

 
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