Question about gender

[constant escape]

I was overthinking it then, assuming they were both somehow ungrounded in biology.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I was overthinking it then, assuming they were both somehow ungrounded in biology

no, just sex

sex isn't always clear at birth - i.e. intersex people

but it is does always refer - in discourse like this - to biological fact

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

For anyone who doesn't fit any part of the current/local construct (which is probably everybody) it's certainly desirable just to disregard them.

absolutely - that's what I mean by no one should feel forced into a role

but I think it's both correct and necessary to distinguish between that and doing away with them all together

rather than doing away with masculinity and femininity, I'm in favor of expanding valid gender identity to encompass other concepts in addition to masculinity and femininity

 

[subvert47]

no, just sex

sex isn't always clear at birth - i.e. intersex people

but it is does always refer - in discourse like this - to biological fact

Our bodies are material things, but the "fact" of what they are and mean are isn't always so straightforward. To a considerable degree, sex is also a social construct.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I'm in favour of abolishing it

trying to put aside our past differences in this area, serious question - what exactly do you envision, then?

a world without gender identity of any kind? a single gender identity for everyone?

I'm pretty confident many people with - of all kinds of gender identities - would be actively against that

shouldn't we embrace a wider range of of gender identities instead of forcing people to abandon their preferred gender identities?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Our bodies are material things, but the "fact" of what they are and mean are isn't always so straightforward.

yes I know. that's precisely why I mentioned intersex people.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

and there's obviously a relation between gender and sex

at the same time, it's valid and useful to distinguish between what you're born with and what you identify as

the important point is that the former shouldn't constrain the latter in any way

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

if the word "fact" is the sticking point, you can replace it with "characteristics" or something similar

 

[boxedjoy]

We learn sex as biological characteristic ie penis is male and vagina is female. But those are arbitrary semiotic codes. If you can untether the concept of sex from such rigid definitions, the way we have with gender, you can open up a whole spectrum of identities and associated freedoms.

 

[boxedjoy]

I identify as a cis male and I am very happy to do so but that doesn't make me masculine and my lack of masculinity makes me happy too.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I'm not saying - at all - sex has to be male and female - they are indeed arbitrary terms

I am only saying it's useful to distinguish between what a person is born with and what they identify as

specifically to support the idea that former doesn't and shouldn't determine the latter

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I identify as a cis male and I am very happy to do so but that doesn't make me masculine and my lack of masculinity makes me happy too

that's exactly what I'm in favor of

the freedom to embrace whatever identity you want regardless of what your genitalia happen to be

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

which to me entails an expansion of identities

the argument for abolishing masculinity and femininity entirely (if that's possible, which I don't think it is, tho again it would be more feasible in a transhuman future) would be that they somehow inhibit that expansion so much that it outweighs the harm that would be done by their abolition

which I don't think is the case at all, but people could disagree

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I am only saying it's useful to distinguish between what a person is born with and what they identify as

specifically to support the idea that former doesn't and shouldn't determine the latter

i.e. my position - the only position one can take, I think - with every non-cis person I've ever been involved with romantically, as friends, and/or as colleagues

whatever you feel you need to do or not do in terms of validating your gender identity, great - reject the binary, combine elements of both, move back and forth between them, make up your own thing altogether, take hormones and get all the surgeries, don't take hormones and get no surgeries, do some but not all - all equally good and I'll support you in whatever you choose

 

[luka]

im a very manly man. pure man with no admixture of any foreign elements. just love manly things like electric drills, spanners, wrenches, hacksaws etc... and watches with leather straps and old nautical equipment and tweed. also whisky cigar smoke strip bars. steak. steak houses. calling my scretary 'sugartits'....

 

[boxedjoy]

Nuts magazine, football, Lynx Africa

 

[constant escape]

I love the idea of you having a secretary by your side as you are sitting outdoors with a typewriter.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

im a very manly man. pure man with no admixture of any foreign elements. just love manly things like electric drills, spanners, wrenches, hacksaws etc... and watches with leather straps and old nautical equipment and tweed. also whisky cigar smoke strip bars. steak. steak houses. calling my scretary 'sugartits'....

oh yeah I see dudes like you all the time on grindr

 

[luka]

 

[vimothy]

It doesn't mean anything. Trans people live within social gender constructs, the same as cis (non-trans) people. The only difference is that trans people are likely to have thought about it a lot more.

Thus...

so there's no challenge to the conventional or common understanding of gender? the existence of trans men and women is completely incorporated into what ppl think of as male and female gender roles?