Benny Bunter

Well-known member
I'm gonna have to read it again tbh, kept getting interrupted when I was reading it and a fair bit of it went over my head, but yeah its excellent. He's generous in that he provides loads of notes and a guide to what he's attempting to do, but you still have to put in loads of research to really understand it.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
He's obviously quite anxious that he won't be understood in the future (hence all the notes), that the signs and signifiers he uses will be lost on many readers as society changes, but I like how he's also committed to it, there's no other real way to write for him and express what he wants to. It asks a lot of the reader but that's a good thing I think, it forces you to learn a lot of stuff you wouldn't have previously bothered looking up.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Just read a good section near the start that seems quite closely related to Prynne's Glacial Question Unsolved, how human civilizations or societies (mythical or not) are at the mercy of these enormous geological forces that shape the human world and can sweep them away, and imagining new ones that may take their place in the future if there were to be another ice age, or new mountain ranges were to spring up.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Went right back to the start of Anathemata and read through the first 4 sections again. Part 3 with the sea voyage from Troy to England is my favourite bit so far, incredible epic poetry, and reckon I've more or less understood what he's doing so far, but ran aground on part 5- The lady of the Pool and I hate skimming over stuff. What's going on in this section, anyone?

I got the psychogeographical thing at the start with all the references to London, but I quickly got lost as to who's speaking and what relevance it has to the rest of the book with regards to the overarching symbolism of the Eucharist and wotnot.
 

WashYourHands

Cat Malogen
Got the May Day week off and intend to attempt to re-digest

Sorry to change tack, what did you make of the Queen of the Woods in IP @Benny B ? Rips the guts out of any living soul yet so far beyond delicate transcendence, a guardian no doubt and possibly the single redemptive feature but at what cost
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Got the May Day week off and intend to attempt to re-digest

Sorry to change tack, what did you make of the Queen of the Woods in IP @Benny B ? Rips the guts out of any living soul yet so far beyond delicate transcendence, a guardian no doubt and possibly the single redemptive feature but at what cost

Very beautiful passage and a much needed feminine presence to give the book balance, and as you say redemption and value to their lives, each as an individual (they don't all receive the same 'prize')

They were all away from their wives/girlfriends or from women in general, so I guess the queen's appearance at the end also represents the redemption of those unfulfilled desires. The book might be too unbearably bleak without it.

Would take quite a lot of research to understand what each of the various diadems they receive represent symbolically - the daisies, st John's wort, brown/white berries etc. Does it somehow map on to the knights of the round table myth? I dunno.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
From Wikipedia

Paul Fussell contends that "The effect of the poem, for all its horrors, is to rationalize and even to validate the war by implying that it somehow recovers many of the motifs and values of medieval chivalric romance"

Which seems like a really dumb take to me, as if using the chivalric romance motifs is 'romanticising' in the way we commonly use that word, to make something seem more appealing.
 

WashYourHands

Cat Malogen
Very beautiful passage and a much needed feminine presence to give the book balance, and as you say redemption and value to their lives, each as an individual (they don't all receive the same 'prize')

They were all away from their wives/girlfriends or from women in general, so I guess the queen's appearance at the end also represents the redemption of those unfulfilled desires. The book might be too unbearably bleak without it.

Would take quite a lot of research to understand what each of the various diadems they receive represent symbolically - the daisies, st John's wort, brown/white berries etc. Does it somehow map on to the knights of the round table myth? I dunno.

It reads almost as a dissociative episode at first, a female presence emergent and emanating from a meta-realm - both of the woods, death and its recent inhabitants, as well as life

She bestows, no indication is given she has born any of said slaughter so her presence is more maternal or a collective representation of one

You could go further. Robert Graves and The White Goddess is one reference point for Jones’s Queen, The Battle of the Trees another (re her gifts). Her transcendent fertility over and beyond death, as if she had absorbed these men into a new cohort/caucus both within and outside of nature, flabbergasted me. Beyond stunning
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
@WashYourHands

From Thomas Dilworth's book on Jones:

THE QUEEN OF THE WOODS

The sanctity, which is also the heroism, of ‘this July noblesse’ (186) has been obscured by ‘Life the leveller’ (185), a corrective reversal of James Shirley's ‘Death the Leveller’. At the end of the
poem, death brings hierarchical revelation in the ceremonial crowning of soldiers by the Queen of the Woods (185-6), a lyrical high point in modern literature. She is crucial to the ultimate
meaning of this poem, which is that human life has value even when it is lived and lost in the political-social-physical absurdity of war. She is the dryad of the forest, the Acorn Sprite (178) of its flora-fall. She delivers true judgments by which the ‘undiademed princes’ (184) ‘have diadems given them’ (185), in (realistically) the steel shorn branches and filigree of the woods.
Her ceremonial action is the poem’s final ritual, in which she unites most of the poem's secular and sacred motifs that have to do with desire, by becoming its archetypal fulfilment:

Fatty Weavel's sweet-briar, the love-token growing from the grave of Barbara Allen in her ballad, identifies him as the ballad’s ‘Jimmy Grove’ mentioned early in the poem (33). His ‘thousand years’ is the biblical millennium symbolizing eternity. The German Balder doubtless
receives mistletoe, the golden bough that kills and subsequently contains the life of his divine namesake in Norse mythology. Ulrich’s myrtle wand is the bough worn by initiates at Eleusis.
Cockney Billy Crower is now the equal of Mr Jenkins (Crow-er is a Cock-ney), for differences of class, rank, and wealth have ceased to matter. So has the common judgment of men, for,
although he seemed an unkind, priggish stickler for rules, ‘that swine Lillywhite’ receives daisies, which symbolize love. German Hansel and Welsh Gronwy, who died fighting each
other, lie together like Malory’s Balin and Balan ‘beneath their single monument’ (163), here a machine gun’s twisted tripod. Their dog-violets symbolize suffering and steadfastness. St John’s
Wort, for Siôn, is a plant gathered on Midsummer's Eve as protection from harm. Aneirin Lewis's rowan or mountain ash, a sign against evil, is indigenous to his native Gwynedd.
In the tender and multifaceted Queen of the Woods, the poem’s associations fully emerge from the ironies by which they indict war. She is the feminine principle nullifying the masculine malice of battle. She extends the poem’s motifs beyond mortality. The antithesis of ‘Life the
leveller’, she is ‘sweet sister Death’ as St Francis would have recognized her. She is the girlfriend that young soldiers longed for, and more: the beloved of the Song of Songs, Diana for these Jacks o’ the Green, the Kore of their initiation, Demeter to mother them. She is the Celtic triple goddess: the mother, the lover, the presider over the dead. Hers is the judgment they wanted, the accommodation they missed. No empty or ironic symbol, she is sustained by the
theological implications of the poem’s ritual associations. In her, nature and grace are one. To her the end of In Parenthesis belongs.

The visitation of the Queen of the Woods is an important literary event. Not only is it among the most moving passages in English, but it is an early appearance of the composite goddess Sir James Frazer had written about at the start of the century. In Ulysses Joyce compares
Molly Bloom to Gea Tellus but only in passing. He evokes the earth goddess more fully in Anna Livia Plurabelle, which is her first appearance in modern literature. Jones's Queen of the Woods
is the second, her first in a poem, and here she is more numinous, more authentically a goddess.
Beginning in 1924 and increasingly around 1930, Ezra Pound refers to Aphrodite and Demeter in the Cantos but does not make them imaginatively present. The goddess becomes prominent in criticism and poetry when Robert Graves writes about the White Goddess in 1948. But David Jones, who knew the Celtic sources better than Graves did, had discovered her there earlier for himself—though Frazer and Joyce doubtless pointed the way. Her visitation was Jones’s
favourite part of the poem.*
 
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