luka
Well-known member
i felt pretty dangerous to me tbh.
I was going to say, asking you to have sympathy for Ukrainians would be similar to asking you to have sympathy for trans people. Total and abject failure of empathy.
Overhyped in retrospect? I find it hard to say, cos I don't have enough of a grasp of what it was like to live through from a US pov
cutrone is broadly correct, though as @dilbert1 notes he can rhetorically overcorrect. the actual issue is the toppling democratic party. a 2024 trump win could do great damage to the American political system, but that will be the fault of the dems, first and foremost. the historical death of democracy.
John Gray, a pessimistic conservative, and absolutely not one of us, is far closer to the mark when he noted that the thatcher-reagan era of neoliberalism would last a lot less than the belle epoque. in fact it was already over by the early 90s, and its been death agony since.
John Gray, a pessimistic conservative, and absolutely not one of us, is far closer to the mark when he noted that the thatcher-reagan era of neoliberalism would last a lot less than the belle epoque. in fact it was already over by the early 90s, and its been death agony since.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
So you have no actual argument. Got it.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
What's the point? If I did give you my argument you'd take it in bad faith, and try and paint me as some sort of psycho (which you've already done anyway). And even if you did take it in good faith you'd be too thick to understand it anyway. So, I'll just pass.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I don't think you're a "psycho", I just think you've got caught up in some pretty questionable ideologies.
All I'm doing here is asking you consider whether it's likely that Putin (or whoever eventually replaces him), in the event of a peace treaty that gives him a large territorial gain, is going to think "That's enough expansion for me now, I think I'm just going to enjoy what I've got."
Has it turned out this way in a similar situation in the past?
If he gains from the Ukraine invasion, he'll want the rest of the country, and after that it'll be Poland, Finland the Baltic states, all of which are NATO members.
I appreciate not wanting to go round and round arguing the toss on Dissensus especially with Tea whose appetite for such things seems endless, but there's isn't a intellectually defensible argument for not arming Ukraine. Refuse to do so and you're allowing for the annexation a liberal democracy in Europe with a huge population by a warmongering authoritarian state. "you'd be too thick to understand my argument" is no argument.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Lol is this you two trying to be nice and reasonable now?
the septics won't arm or mobilise for Ukraine in the way any side of this debate (either pro or anti) conceives it so it's a bit of a moot point tbh. People who parrot out this line tend to wish that policy makers can be won to argument through intellectual reasoning, and that's just not how capital exerts its impersonal domination. Already we can see the US political class doing everything to avoid netanyahu dragging them into confrontation with Iran, because the longer this war continues, the more untenable the US's position becomes as Israel self-destructs. I don't think the US wants to see a russian defeat in Ukraine because it relies on its mediating power in the Middle East and the baltic states. If Trump is going to do anything, it would be an attempt to withdraw from or dissolve NATO, which would signal American independence from Europe, a backwater in terms of global geo-politics.
I mean I'm not on the Russian aggressor side here but we have to be realistic. This argument for American exceptionalism was bankrupted in Iraq and Syria, why would it be successful now?
I mean I'm not on the Russian aggressor side here but we have to be realistic. This argument for American exceptionalism was bankrupted in Iraq and Syria, why would it be successful now?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
The only person who's flung any insults so far is you. You know you're not going to "win" the "argument" so you're picking up your ball and taking it home with you.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
I don't know if I agree, 'cos the US certainly doesn't want to see a Russian victory either.
US policy has always been to encourage perpetual internescene war.
again, both Syria and Iraq are great case studies for this.
Entirely possible - and likely I'm overestimating coherence in their policy aims - though a declining US could still arm Ukraine sufficiently to ensure Russian defeat.