RATE: characters/plot/style/ideas in novels & plays

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Wuthering Heights is seriously flawed in plot, style and ideas but the characters of Heathcliff and Cathy elevate it into the top tier of literature regardless

That's why I put characters at the top of the list.
 

Murphy

cat malogen
You wrote all that in 8 minutes on your lunch break? o_O

More like ten

Conversation cropped up earlier this week with someone querying film options for our night shift lair. CaS mentioned but amongst the horror, the collective sometimes avoids adding ”more grim”. IP was an adjunct and occasionally a thread and irl convos align. Y Gododdin was a college hotspot too, the root poem underpinning and feeding into each chapter and the story as a whole, minus the queen, ie any excuse

Was trying distinguish how IP hits so hard and how, for film, not many get close to the visceral nature except instantly you’re drawn into all the ways each conflict differed, how IP is trench warfare the other open genocide, as opposed to what links each work of art and their scope

coffee is king, as is Parajanov who deserves his own thread as are the tandoori tiger prawns from the takeaway
 

kid charlemagne

Well-known member
Listened to Robert Altman's commentary on McCabe and Mrs. Miller, and speaks a lot upon how the different elements of film build up the "plot", and how much more important they are.

the dialogue in his films are part of the characters and actors, but the words arent whats important as "thats too related to theater where you are trying to advance plot". when you have close ups of people and faces that you can push right up to the audience, its better the words come from the moment.

Altman says that looking at the characters, and the detail of them and the setting that the film has built gives more insight to the audience than an "explained plot", because its not about 'who done it', but why did they do it, and by having more detailed characters and making more dedicated formal choices to his setting, the film offers viewers the opportunity to just think about the ideas, rather than the ideas be explained to them.
 

Murphy

cat malogen
it’s a superb film but would it be the same without the cold? always brings frosted windows and snow-layered roofs to mind

and Julie Christie

Where Eagles Dare is the wwii Nazi slaughter equivalent, sort of, I mean not really, there’s snow, and a castle, and Broadsword Calling Danny Boy call sign, and several actors who made a career playing Wehrmacht or SS killers in the shadows of the war
 

DLaurent

Well-known member
Tempted to go for style, as it often fits the way I watch films, but then the deeper I watch it, usually second time round, I'd put plot first. Something like Pale Flower is highly stylised but lacks the plot and characters of the best American films. Ideas I think has to be up there but work best on a subconscious level. Edit - just realised Novels and Plays! Oops.
 

vershy versh

Well-known member
I'm often fascinated when people talk about a particular structure or intent to someone's style, e.g. Debord claiming to have left gaps in his writing and hidden certain things; Derrida allegedly writing the way he did as a demonstration of his theory.

That sort of claim tends to add a layer of mystery for me as I'm not always able to pick up on the structure myself, so the idea there's some occulted component can be tantalising. It's great marketing, if nothing else.

Something which stuck from reading Kenner was his pointing out how much of the language we use to describe writing is spatial. We talk about things like depth and surface, levels and structure. One of the more interesting aspects of Cylconopedia's what Negarestani terms 'Hidden Writing' and how plot holes and inconsistencies can be entrances to a tunnel network of traps, tombs and treasures beneath a text.

This sort of thing's why the scene in Gravity's Rainbow with the ruined factory seems to be the defining image of the book for me. It's been prodding me like a splinter since I read it:

There doesn’t exactly dawn, no but there breaks, as that light you’re afraid will break some night at too deep an hour to explain away—there floods on Enzian what seems to him an extraordinary understanding. This serpentine slagheap he is just about to ride into now, this ex-refinery, Jamf Ölfabriken Werke AG, is not a ruin at all. It is in perfect working order. Only waiting for the right connections to be set up, to be switched on... modified, precisely, deliberately by bombing that was never hostile, but part of a plan both sides—”sides?” —had always agreed on... yes and now what if we—all right, say we are supposed to be the Kabbalists out here, say that’s our real Destiny, to be the scholar-magicians of the Zone, with somewhere in it a Text, to be picked to pieces, annotated, explicated, and masturbated till it’s all squeezed limp of its last drop... well we assumed—natürlich!—that this holy Text had to be the Rocket, orururumo orunene the high, rising, dead, the blazing, the great one (“orunene” is already being modified by the Zone-Herero children to “omunene,” the eldest brother)... our Torah. What else? Its symmetries, its latencies, the cuteness of it enchanted and seduced us while the real Text persisted, somewhere else, in its darkness, our darkness... even this far from Südwest we are not to be spared the ancient tragedy of lost messages, a curse that will never leave us... . But, if I’m riding through it, the Real Text, right now, if this is it... or if I passed it today somewhere in the devastation of Hamburg, breathing the ashdust, missing it completely... if what the IG built on this site were not at all the final shape of it, but only an arrangement of fetishes, come-ons to call down special tools in the form of 8th AF bombers yes the “Allied” planes all would have been, ultimately, IG-built, by way of Director Krupp, through his English interlocks—the bombing was the exact industrial process of conversion, each release of energy placed exactly in space and time, each shock-wave plotted in advance to bring precisely tonight’s wreck into being thus decoding the Text, thus coding, recoding, redecoding the holy Text... If it is in working order, what is it meant to do?​
 
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