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Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
Comparitvely deprived with Sky TV, Central Heating, housing benefits, free healthcare and education, ample employment opportunities and free housing.

Yes, it is just like living in South Central LA!
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
Comparitvely deprived with Sky TV, Central Heating, housing benefits, free healthcare and education, ample employment opportunities and free housing.

Yes, it is just like living in South Central LA!

well, people in south central also get state benefits, welfare cheques, cable TV and things like that too. those things are pretty much standard for everyone in the western world these days unless youre homeless or living right on the poverty line. im sure people in south central would disagree that there is a sufficient standard of education and ample employment opps though. then again, i dont live there. but what youre saying gets said by a lot of american people too. 'people in - insert inner city area - need to pull their socks up' etc etc. its all relative isnt it?
 

Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
The hardships these kids face are self inflicted due to boredom and greed.

I deal with them every day and they just have no guidance or aspirations to be a productive member of society.

There is no abject poverty in London
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
bringing this back to the thread topic then, just what are grime MCs so angry about then? are they being a bit over dramatic?
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
props to sizzle. that post about cam and the dips has just made me laugh a lot and is spot-on, too. i've said repeatedly that camron is the gayest rapper ever, especially after being told that there's a scene in one of his movies (state property, i think) where he takes a piss on some dude and says "no homo" when he's done - just in case you thought it was a bit watersporty or that he was enjoying it.
the whole "no homo" thing is a great get-out clause which enables them to be completely faggy in their behavior, dress etc. it's like a premptive strike that buys them the right to be effeminate in many ways.
i'm not convinced that cam is actually a practising homo (it's certainly possible, though), but this blurring of machismo and camp is happening a lot in hip-hop and in dancehall, too.
pink is a hugely popular colour with kingston gangstas, dudes are wearing their chicks' spandex pants and halter tops to dances etc.
t's so big that bounty killer actually called for men to stop wearing pink at sting and ce'cile has made records about guys wearing girls' clothing to the extent that it's difficult for women to buy tight pants because men have snapped them all up.
the men in question are emphatically not gay and that's the interesting thing about it. it's like a mocking/defeminising/defagging of these gender/sexual signifiers - as if to say "we are so fucking hard that we can do this and no one will dare say a word".
i think caroline cooper has written something about all this, but i haven't read it yet. i'll have to ask my friend erin about it, because she knows about this sort of stuff.

(side note, as i'm totally hooked on the wire at the moment, what do people reckon about the effect omar's character might have had on the way the hip-hop community's views homosexuality? he's the best character in the whole thing, totally gangsta, tough as fuck and completely gay. hip-hop is more or less obsessed with this show, so i could see him having quite a positive effect, too).
 
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simon silverdollar

Guest
props to sizzle. that post about cam and the dips has just made me laugh a lot and is so completely spot-on, too. i've said repeatedly that camron is the gayest rapper ever, especially after being told that there's a scene in one of his movies (state property, i think) where he takes a piss on some dude and says "no homo" when he's done - just in case you though that scene was a bit watersporty and homoerotic.
the whole "no homo" thing is a compelete get-out clause which enables them to be completely faggy in their behavior, dress etc, which is actually quite interesting. i'm not convinced that he is actually a practising homo (it's possible, though), but this blurring of machismo and camp is happening a lot in hip-hop and in dancehall, too. pink is a hugely popular colour with kingston gangstas, dudes are wearing their chicks' spandex pants and halter tops to dances etc. these are emphatically not gay men at all, but it's still happening
it's so big that bounty killer actually calling for men to stop wearing pink at sting and ce'cile has made records about guys wearing girls' clothing. i think caroline cooper has written something about all this, but i haven't read it yet. i'll have to ask my friend erin about it, because she knows about these things.

after reading this i was suddenly tempted to do a google-image search for 'jamaican men in spandex pants + halter tops'. but then i realised that if my girlfriend ever saw that on my search-history, i'd have a very hard time explaining it...
 

D84

Well-known member
The hardships these kids face are self inflicted due to boredom and greed.

I deal with them every day and they just have no guidance or aspirations to be a productive member of society.

There is no abject poverty in London
Oh man... are you baiting me? :)

Where I was staying in London during the brief time I was there around the corner was a pakistani man who seemed to have every aspiration to be a productive member of society who lived in his small car. My friends called him the Car Man.

But yeah sure in comparison with some non-western cities London's poverty might not be so abject (don't worry Sydney is no great shakes either in case you think I'm slamming your town).

Stelfox, pleas ask erin: sound interesting.
 

mms

sometimes
well, people in south central also get state benefits, welfare cheques, cable TV and things like that too. those things are pretty much standard for everyone in the western world these days unless youre homeless or living right on the poverty line. im sure people in south central would disagree that there is a sufficient standard of education and ample employment opps though. then again, i dont live there. but what youre saying gets said by a lot of american people too. 'people in - insert inner city area - need to pull their socks up' etc etc. its all relative isnt it?

just a quick q - if you are on welfare do you still get medicines or do you have to pay for them, or is this decided state by state?
i understand you get operations for free but not medicines, is this right?
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
props to sizzle. that post about cam and the dips has just made me laugh a lot and is so completely spot-on, too. i've said repeatedly that camron is the gayest rapper ever, especially after being told that there's a scene in one of his movies (state property, i think) where he takes a piss on some dude and says "no homo" when he's done - just in case you though that scene was a bit watersporty or that he was enjoying it.
the whole "no homo" thing is a compelete get-out clause which enables them to be completely faggy in their behavior, dress etc, which is actually worth looking into.
i'm not convinced that he is actually a practising homo (it's possible, though), but this blurring of machismo and camp is happening a lot in hip-hop and in dancehall, too. pink is a hugely popular colour with kingston gangstas, dudes are wearing their chicks' spandex pants and halter tops to dances etc.
t's so big that bounty killer actually calling for men to stop wearing pink at sting and ce'cile has made records about guys wearing girls' clothing. i
these are emphatically not gay men and that's the interesting thing about it. it's like a mocking/defeminising/defagging of these gender/sexual signifiers - as if to say "we are so fucking hard that we can do this and no one will dare say a word".
i think caroline cooper has written something about all this, but i haven't read it yet. i'll have to ask my friend erin about it, because she knows about this sort of stuff.

(side note, as i'm totally hooked on the wire at the moment, what do people reckon about the effect omar's character might have had on the way the hip-hop community's views homosexuality? he's the best character in the whole thing, totally gangsta, tough as fuck and completely gay. hip-hop is more or less obsessed with this show, so i could see him having quite a positive effect, too).

Glad it's a phenomenon at the moment but there's always been the school of 'I'm so hard I can do and wear this', Snoop Dogg being a great example. I've always been terrified of the pretty kids in the gangs, they're lethal. And Liberians know that too....

<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f119/mistersloane/wig.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
There is no abject poverty in London

i think you'll find there is. maybe there doesn't need to be, but there still is.
depends what sort of family you're born into, really.
people can have pretty shitty lives here without making much of an effort to.
go to places like glasgow, liverpool and other crappy places and you'll see that ghettos do exist in british society and they're pretty much as bad as anywhere else's.
 

mms

sometimes
after reading this i was suddenly tempted to do a google-image search for 'jamaican men in spandex pants + halter tops'. but then i realised that if my girlfriend ever saw that on my search-history, i'd have a very hard time explaining it...

yes it sounds like something you'd joke about doesn't it .
reminds me a bit of lads that pluck their eyebrows and have sharp hairdoos, go to gay clubs cos thats where they can show off their toned physiques etc, course they're not gay either..
 

bun-u

Trumpet Police
The hardships these kids face are self inflicted due to boredom and greed.

I deal with them every day and they just have no guidance or aspirations to be a productive member of society.

There is no abject poverty in London

Certainly most people can get a shit minimum wage job and be able to bridge the extra needed with benefits to be able to afford a roof over your head and all of the other basics…this isn’t poverty in the old fashioned sense of your basic needs, but the poverty in terms of inequality - knowing that you’re not going to enjoy the privileged life of the better half without a slice of massive luck or turning to crime. The best you can do is think about being able to offer something better for your kids – something which was perhaps more of an option in the past when the working class was considered more noble (today they’re lazy scheming chavs)
 

Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
Groups of kids roaming the streets wearing £250 worth of Nike gear, with £110 mobile phones and living in houses with Sky Digital aren't living in poverty!

It's fucking bullshit. Please don't try tell me otherwise.

You might get the isolated case of an immigrant that doesn't know how to properly work within the system to provide for his family, but these kids that are involved in grime DO NO live in any form of poverty.

Please don't come across like a bunch of hand-wringing liberal Guardian readers here. I work with these people every day and some of their homes dwarf my humble Essex terrace.
 

benjybars

village elder.
boy, logan's got some dodgy politics! I swear there's bare grime tunes that clearly and eloquently state the argument against this whole 'what are they moaning about, you just need to find some drive and you can be a success' thing.. fair enough, maybe a lot of the grime mcs themselves are not facing abject poverty, and he would obviously know their individual circumstances better than me, but to claim poverty in britain is something that only existed in the olden days, and that ANYONE in modern britain could make it if only they got their bloody act together is so blatantly wrong.

hold tight the bleeding heart crew.. your time.
 

DJ Lioness

Well-known member
Please don't come across like a bunch of hand-wringing liberal Guardian readers here. I work with these people every day and some of their homes dwarf my humble Essex terrace.

Probably because they're high rise flats!

Not sure what people you work with either, having Sky television or a pair of Nike trainers doesn't automatically make you well off. What kind of ignorant analogy is that?
 

petergunn

plywood violin
It's basically a pre-emptive strike against someone twisting something you said and making it "sound gay".

"Haterz can kiss my ass!"
"Dude, you sound totally gay. You like having yr ass kissed! LOLOLZOLOZ!!!!"

becomes

"Haterz can kiss my ass! No homo."
"That's fine by me."

england needs more "ant-haterism"... i go on the RWD forum and learn, apparently, that every single person involved in grime is a wasteman... seriously, those kids don't like anyone... it's kinda sad, b/c they're all totally into this micro-culture, and they are basically the only people in the world really into it, and all they do is say stuff like everything sucks and why bother buying that, i'll just download it... weak...
 
england needs more "ant-haterism"... i go on the RWD forum and learn, apparently, that every single person involved in grime is a wasteman... seriously, those kids don't like anyone... it's kinda sad, b/c they're all totally into this micro-culture, and they are basically the only people in the world really into it, and all they do is say stuff like everything sucks and why bother buying that, i'll just download it... weak...

to which you respond ?...by hating on them here ? Vicious innit ? :D
 

benjybars

village elder.
Probably because they're high rise flats!

Not sure what people you work with either, having Sky television or a pair of Nike trainers doesn't automatically make you well off. What kind of ignorant analogy is that?


it's true.. logan posts loads of thing that make me really surprised he's done well in grime.. but obviously he has so fair play (no homo.. well, not much)
 

Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
Probably because they're high rise flats!

Not sure what people you work with either, having Sky television or a pair of Nike trainers doesn't automatically make you well off. What kind of ignorant analogy is that?


There is a difference between living well off, and claiming the same sort of ghetto-ized conditions and poverty and hardships that allegedly force you into perpetrating a "Gangster" stereotype.

And if you honestly are defending people who use their fabricated poverty as an excuse for being criminals rather than their own lust for brand new material posessions to put next to their Nike shoe boxes and Sky Digibox, then I don't know what you want for this country.

It certainly isn't a generation of young adults who have any sort of interest in being productive members of society.
 
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