Jeff Chang: “Why has nothing replaced hip hop?”

[stelfox]

well, that's why i said that there's no problem with kraftwerk, but...

"stockhausen, however, is really tenuous. any effect he might have had on hip-hop was second and third-hand (and then it was only a very small aspect of his work - ie the fact that it was electronically produced), mediated via groups like kraftwerk..."

perhaps it's not tenuous so much as a red herring.

 

[corneilius]

Style is content?

I was under the impression hiphop was originally about partying as an escape from the realities of ghetto life.

What I meant, and I hope this came through, was that they wanted to raise consciousness, to motivate people to take steps change, to reclaim their power as people .... and thus rather than escapism, it was about facing the reality full-on ..... and that is what the corporate mind is terrified of most - people who WILL face the reality, name it for what it is, and who WILL spread the word.

That is why the money men interjected their high finance, and turned it into partying/escapism ... bling bling bling! They were hoping to undermine the movement, the validity of hip-hop.

Their agenda has been reasonably successful - if ya look at the mainstream it's yet another style to make a living with ....

Personally I love hip-hop beats and vocals, though I do not consider I have the talent required for such precision, timing and vocal wizardry not to mention the turntablism and rythymic dynamics to engage in it myself. That is best left to those who can, so that those who can't, such as myself, can admire and be enthused by such performance, uplifted from the negativity whilst at the same time facing it full-on.

Partying is no 'real' escape from anything, except for a few brief hours - the real work of change is a day to day toil, a lifetimes committment, with no guarantees of success. That level of committment sorts the boys from the men so to speak!

In my view, under the circumstances of our times, entertainment is not enough, there must be solid aware content, and it must be seen to be actionable. Anything less than that, from what is essentially a public forum, is either cowardice or greed.

 

[gumdrops]

heres a new track that proves hip hop is just as innovative, thought provoking, and non-conformist as it ever was.
http://www.spinemagazine.com/music/march/bustarhymes/ilovemybitch.mp3

 

[corneilius]

heres a new track that proves hip hop is just as innovative, thought provoking, and non-conformist as it ever was.
http://www.spinemagazine.com/music/march/bustarhymes/ilovemybitch.mp3

That is exactly what I was talking about - shite like that has nothing to offer anyone, other than re-inforcing prodoundly negative stereotypes and is NOT in any way representative of the original motivation, awarness and aspirations of hip-hop.

"I love my bitch" is as much use to humanity as a fart in a crowded lift that is stuck on the 25th floor. In a Towering Inferno.

Phuckwitz Like Wolfowitz! not!

 

[stelfox]

i have a really good idea. people who hate hip-hop so much, please stop listening to it, for god's sake.
and why should contemporary hip-hop (which, as i've already said, is an extraordinarily broad church, not one single, monolithic entity) "stay true" to the original motivations and aspirations of music that came almost three decades previously, birthed in an entirely different social and political climate?

 

[zhao]

why should contemporary hip-hop (which, as i've already said, is an extraordinarily broad church, not one single, monolithic entity) "stay true" to the original motivations and aspirations of music that came almost three decades previously, birthed in an entirely different social and political climate?

agreed.

and here's my overarching, broad socio-political generalizing 2 cents:

maybe the original question has something to do with a fragmentation of black community in recent decades, and a diffusion of Afro-American identity. I'm no cultural anthropoligist but somehow it seems that before the 80s there was much more unity and sense of cohesion and togetherness in black culture; whereas after 80s there is a lot more mixing, cross-polinating (not to mention breeding) and co-optation going on.

perhaps it is also a part of a larger cultural fragmentation, in the "pluralist" age we live in.* when thought of with the fragmentation of big music "movements" into a profusion of hundreds of micro-movements, genres, and scenes, this kind of makes sense.


*the art critic Hal Foster has described Pliralism as a big mall where everything has been reduced to mere style, where every styel is available for sampling, but means nothing - everything is permited and nothing is important. a phenomenon which seems liberating, but actually maskes a deep set complacency and conservatism.

 

[gumdrops]

xpost - OR why dont you tell us whats really great right about now in hip hop that we should all be listening to and why since you think everything is hunky dory and we'll give it a fair shot. im genuinely interested to know.

 

[stelfox]

i've done it until i'm blue in the face.

 

[gumdrops]

where?!

apart from the bay area stuff (have you heard the banner/shadow song by the way? its pretty good), what else should we be looking out for? come on, heres the perfect opportunity to prove all the old farts, relics, and general dyed in the wool cynics wrong.... just a quick list would do.

 

[hint]

Lupe Fiasco

 

[MATT MAson]

Juvenile recently went to the top of the album charts here, the video for his last single which has little kids running through the ruined streets of New Orleans in Bush, Cheney and Ray Nagin masks is one of the most politically motivated vids to make it to MTV in a long time. Hip hop can be political and mainstream, the two things are not mutually exclusive.

 

[zhao]

Hip hop can be political and mainstream

(taking a wee bit of piss here) yeah but conscious hiphop is for before midnight... after midnight (and a few stiff drinks) all I wanna hear is the ignorant trax!

no but seriously... I wonder why it is that in recent times religious fundamentalism (Jamaica) and backward attitudes (south) produces some of the most shakinest, boominest, most exhilarating party music... while the likes of The Coup or Dead Prez are just plain un-effective in the floor-killing dept?

 

[gumdrops]

some good stuff ive heard recently -

e40 - white girl
ti - parts of the new album
clipse - me too (the beat is amazing)
pharrell - wheres yours at (again, this beat is brilliance, and the french rappers are good too)
the new ghostface album is o-k, though not as brilliant as everyone thinks it is
i like some of 40 cal's stuff, though camron is still the best in the dips (his new single isnt bad), with everyone else far below him
im also still listening to the last clipse mixtape but when they let the other guys in their crew who arent in the group rap, it suffers, but clipse are so vicious, it doesnt matter

 

[Logan Sama]

Juvenile recently went to the top of the album charts here, the video for his last single which has little kids running through the ruined streets of New Orleans in Bush, Cheney and Ray Nagin masks is one of the most politically motivated vids to make it to MTV in a long time. Hip hop can be political and mainstream, the two things are not mutually exclusive.

Not that I have seen it, but that's like saying the Murkleman video is a politically motivated piece.....

 

[DJ PIMP]

What I meant, and I hope this came through, was that they wanted to raise consciousness, to motivate people to take steps change, to reclaim their power as people

I'm not hugely versed in old school hiphop but I can't think of anything "conscious" prior to The Message. I understood what you wrote, but like I said, nothing I've read points to there being an overtly politicised movement in NYC around the early days of the block parties and such. It sounds like wishful revisionism to me... will have to read the book!

I wonder why it is that in recent times religious fundamentalism (Jamaica) and backward attitudes (south) produces some of the most shakinest, boominest, most exhilarating party music... while the likes of The Coup or Dead Prez are just plain un-effective in the floor-killing dept?

You can't mack on weak-ass beats.

 

[gumdrops]

Not that I have seen it, but that's like saying the Murkleman video is a politically motivated piece.....

haha - exactly. that juvenile song has nothing to do with the images in the video. and the lyrics have not one iota of consciousness. theyre totally unrelated. its like ludacris making a 'political' video about womens rights for his old song area codes.

if juvenille wanted to say something in a song about what happened in new orleans, he could have quite easily, but like all his peers, he chose to play it safe and not say anything remotely critical of 'the powers that be' in fear of upsetting anyone. the best statement about katrina from a rapper is still that blurted out one liner from kanye, and that wasnt even a song!

the vid for get your hustle on is good, dont get me wrong, and its quite sad to see all those images, but at the end, they tack on some other song of his, maybe to make it easier on anyone who was missing all the usual hip hop video cliches.

 

[zhao]

You can't mack on weak-ass beats.

sigh... ok I'll re-phrase:

what makes religious fundamentalism and backwards, intolerant, hateful, politically unaware, selfish, vain, and just plain ignorant attitudes so inducive to the making of wicked beats and party rockin' music?

on a sober tip, was just listening to NPR during lunch, in which the author of "Black Men Left Behind" was interviewed... some very alarming facts such as right now is the lowest un-employment rate for young black males ever; there are more black males in prison than higher education; etc, etc.

when considering these social realities, this music that I sometimes like very much, this music which glorifies violence and drugs, most definitely has a devestating effect on the black community. it's all fun and games to us (who do not live in the ghettos and have jobs), but to others less fortunate, this is music which fascilitates the destruction of lives in a very real way.

and the rappers know this too... I forget which southern album this is, but it starts with a sample of a heart wrenching, desperate outcry from what sounds like a parent who has lost a child, for the community to rid itself of the disease of crime and gangsterism... and the album proceeds to glorify violence and drugs.

 

[MATT MAson]

haha - exactly. that juvenile song has nothing to do with the images in the video. and the lyrics have not one iota of consciousness. theyre totally unrelated. its like ludacris making a 'political' video about womens rights for his old song area codes.

True, but the images in the video did have a political message, that wasn't lost on people. Since when do videos have to directly relate to the lyrics of the song to be any good, or relevant? Can't they have a message on their own? Is that message not relevant on its own?

To use your example, imagine if Luda did re-release area codes with a new video conveying a political womens rights message? Seriously, think about it. Fuck it, storyboard it! Can you see the vision brother? It would be wicked hot!

Mainstream hip hop could benefit from a post bling ironic self-loathing phase...

 

[Melchior]

i have a really good idea. people who hate hip-hop so much, please stop listening to it, for god's sake.
and why should contemporary hip-hop (which, as i've already said, is an extraordinarily broad church, not one single, monolithic entity) "stay true" to the original motivations and aspirations of music that came almost three decades previously, birthed in an entirely different social and political climate?

Hear Hear! Where's a clappy smiley when you need one?

While I think of it Dave - your review of Spare change's murderation mix made me want it but were you taking the piss when you said it was super cheap? The fuckers were going to charge me US$24 for postage!

 

[gumdrops]

True, but the images in the video did have a political message, that wasn't lost on people. Since when do videos have to directly relate to the lyrics of the song to be any good, or relevant? Can't they have a message on their own? Is that message not relevant on its own?

it is, but when you have a video lamenting what happened in new orleans and the lyrics are talking more or less standard criminal-morale-boosting stuff, it seems a little.... hollow. its a good gesture though, of course, and better than nothing at all. you could even say arguably that the message is that much more effective cos the video's allied to something more familiar... 'spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down', etc etc.

To use your example, imagine if Luda did re-release area codes with a new video conveying a political womens rights message? Seriously, think about it. Fuck it, storyboard it! Can you see the vision brother? It would be wicked hot!

Mainstream hip hop could benefit from a post bling ironic self-loathing phase...

ha, i agree. luda should get bell hooks to direct a video for him with germaine greer as one of the love interests. it would be great if mainstream underwent a post-bling ironic partially self loathing phase but i would think satire is probably somewhat off limits for most rappers PR image as it might imply theyre not taking themselves seriously or might suggest they arent being truly 'real'. the roots did a bling-mocking video in 1995/1996 though which was quite funny......