Burial interview @ Blackdown/Burial album

[Kuma]

a landcrusing for the dubstep era?

 

[Logos]

I think with Burial the "out of time-ness" or broken-down and crippled feel is due to the fact he is hand editing his(her?) drums in soundforge, rather than cutting individual drum sounds up and then placing them in a quantising sequencer which locks each sample into a given step (ie 8th notes or 16th notes)-or using a soft studio environment where drum samples are automatically assigned into locked positions in a groovebox type format--- instead I suspect he's (she's???) going by ear like you had to when editing on old hardware samplers... or by eye (as soundforge displays the wave form in front of you).

Well - he'll be going by ear to some extent but using an audio editor as your primary build tool is not actually that freeform. Anyone who's spent time (usually something one does when you first get involved in electronic music) doing cut and paste style construction in sound forge or wavelab knows it is actually quite easy to get a tight groove, because you can do all sorts of calculations of how long a bar/4th/8th/16th should be at a given tempo. Burial's tunes are perfectly mixable.

But you are right in another way - he obviously does stay off the rigid 'snap to grid' in a free and creative way, though the thing with swung beats is its more often a matter of moving one or two elements to produce an insanely swung effect rather than moving all the elements in a bar, and also things like bass patterns.

 

[gek-opel]

Awesome exclusive track by Burial on the new Blackdown Keysound mix- "U Hurt Me" in a mix with more kinda funk guitars and balearic style instrumentation--- brilliantly sad and summery... not having heard the album (heard the snippets at Blackdown a month or so back) I dunno exactly how this compares to the original mix... but fuck- get this version out. It actually sounds like a hit, weirdly. The whole mix is excellent... really odd and experimental and dark and light in all the right places... some of Blackdown's new tracks sound really fucked up in the best possible way (given his post on Kode9's "Fukkaz" a while back I wonder if thats whats led him to "Mantis"...?)

 

[adruu]

ive really been enjoying the back and forth about this. unfortunately, i dont have the time to distill my gushing into something super relevant...

he/she/it/they are beyond any superlative i can think of right now.

just judging from the radio1 mix, these songs rep everything i loved but forgot about. arrhythmic pounces, clear low end bounce, the teasing, the cut up vocals...

spatially it reminds me of the old fsol radio mixes...and there are chunks of photek's still life remix all over this as well.

its perfect.

 

[nomos]

Sorry, I've been running around all day and haven't been able to check in here. Nice to see it's still lively.

... the 'inhuman feminine'. Think Gek has highlighted above the problems that ensued once that 'feminine' side was re-naturalized as a certain saccharine soulfulness.

My grand thesis would be that the 'inhuman feminine' has receded as the rave elements have been bred out of the continuum. My claim would be that this has taken out the utopian/ anti-realist elements too.

Very true that there has a been a conscious parsing out of the 'feminine' since rave's decline, signalled early on as the tone of 'chipmunk' vocals shifted from ecstatic to tortured, and then articulated as an overt agenda with ragga jungle's "no gyal tune" stance. These shifts are (often/largely) political gestures, conscious efforts to consolidate particular gender roles and hierarchies. "Keeping it real" is the preservation of a patriarchal status quo.

So more on the "inhuman feminine" please I'd be interested.

Having missed this 2step period altogether when it happened, I'm still wondering to what extent 'Feminine Pressure,' while bringing women back to the dancefloor, was still a heteronormative force. Was there any visible/allowable queer presence in UK garage culture during that time?

I'd be interested to know what people think of Burial's Soundforged, hand-crafted beat structures, the way some elements are definitely out of time, in a literal "quantised" sense.

I love this about her/his tracks. It feeds directly into the feel of a damaged or cobbled-together entity lurching along, threatening to break up as it gathers speed. It could certainly be pulled off with a sequencer I think, using groove templates and a very high quantise resolution, but her/his cut/pasting contributes so much to the organicity of the sound.

Coming back to this...I think its a fair point but isn't it interesting in itself that the physicality of dubstep is, even more so than its predecessors over the last 15 years, an inherent, vital compenent of a whole understanding of the music. It makes the site-specific nature of a dance even more important.

Though interestingly MP3's and rinse broadcasts are proving important in spreading the virus outside of the area where regular nights happen too.

Trust me, it's even harder to have the experience in its full physicality, living in Ottawa. It's not even an option

The mp3 question is very interesting. For a good two years, that was the only way that I was able to hear the music. But through blogs, forums and radio rip banter I could grasp the sonic theory/sonic mythologies of dubstep, and imagine the the affective bodily experience to the point that I could then infer elements of the music which I couldn't actually hear. But that only did so much for me actually understanding how the music operated. Actually hearing it in its home environment - having, rather than imagining the experience - was what made it click and that's largely what has me hooked now. So in a one sense it's very interesting that this music does demand participation in a sonic-social setting and

The other side of that, though, is that it breeds a cult of localised authenticity and, if qualities of sub-bass become the central concern, I think it places too much engineering emphasis that one element to the exclusion of other emotive sonics. This is Burial's strength and it's partly why the album format lends itself so well to her/his music. The bottom is there (I'm assuming, based on the lo-bps recording I've got) but it's just the foundation for these emotive, textured scapes that have a life of their own and (getting to my point) translate very well to less profoundly bass-y systems. The bass/sub, here, is part of a much more complex and messy whole, rather than the centre of attention, as in the bass-Suprematism of a track like 'Goat Stare.'

 

[Logos]

The other side of that, though, is that it breeds a cult of localised authenticity and, if qualities of sub-bass become the central concern, I think it places too much engineering emphasis that one element to the exclusion of other emotive sonics. This is Burial's strength and it's partly why the album format lends itself so well to her/his music.

Definitely - agreed.

 

[k-punk]

these songs rep everything i loved but forgot about. arrhythmic pounces, clear low end bounce, the teasing, the cut up vocals...

That's exactly my feeling... and it's significant that you use the term 'songs' rather than 'tracks', that seems appropriate...

re: Dubstep albums... I just listened to the whole Mark One lp and I had that same response I invariably have with dubstep. First coupla minutes of the first track ---- excellent, this is great, surely I was too harsh on dubstep... But by the second and third track, you feel like you are locked in a multi-storey car park on a planet where gravity is twice as powerful. It is too HEAVY in all the wrong ways. And too clean --- like being stabbed repeatedly, but with a blunt instrument.

I take the 'sub-bass materialist' point that this monotony is transformed in the club environment. But I can't help but feel that it covers a lack in the sound. Weirdly, that kind of defence acts as a kind of vindication of rockism. I laugh at the rockist point that you 'can't listen to this at home' when it's made about jungle, techno or 2step; but it seems that it's true of dubstep.

By contrast with Mark One's, Burial's tracks sound BOTH cluttered and spacy. The crackle, muffle and occasionally out-of-time quality of the beats is clearly crucial - I think music production faces the same danger that films do with CGI, the temptation of a kind of excessive, oppressive, airless hygiene. Simon's comment in Feminine Pressure is more apt than ever: 'When breakbeat science is at its best there's a vital tension between the humanity and the technology, the residual and the emergent. Too much technique led to the over-programmed, micro-edited , vibe-less beats of latterday drum & bass; relax the technical virtuosity too much, though, and the results sounded too naturalistic, too residual.' I love the fact that Burial uses the shape of waveforms to compose - and btw, isn't it great to read an interview with an artist which is consistently interesting? Not 'ah, i dunno, I just do me best knowarrimean' but really thoughtful stuff...

 

[Logos]

Just quickly - I don't think artist albums should (necessarily - Burial, Goldie nonwithstanding) be the locus on which you should form opinions of a music like dubstep or jungle for that matter..surely the locus should be the DJ set?

Also I don't think the Mark One album is a particularly good example of what dubstep has to offer - I thought it was one dimensional and, to be frank, tired.

 

[k-punk]

"Keeping it real" is the preservation of a patriarchal status quo.

Totally, which is why I think that no matter how ludicrous the fantasies they chat about are, grime and hip hop tend to be Capitalist Realist - in that their basic picture of humanity and the social is so predatory and venal.

Having missed this 2step period altogether when it happened, I'm still wondering to what extent 'Feminine Pressure,' while bringing women back to the dancefloor, was still a heteronormative force. Was there any visible/allowable queer presence in UK garage culture during that time?

I couldn't answer that, I didn't go to clubs much, I just listened to it on the pirates mainly. Reading Feminine Pressure again, I'm reminded of many of the downsides of the 2step scene - the conspicuous consumption etc. Can't imagine it was that queer-friendly but perhaps I'm being hasty.

Hey, slightly OT, but on heteronormativity (nice to see this as an abuse term, particularly here, which has often seemed oppressively heteronormative recently) these two posts by Dominic Fox are brilliant. I wonder how Dominic's militant dysphoria compares with the 'stimulant dysphoria' Simon writes of in Feminine Pressure?

 

[k-punk]

Just quickly - I don't think artist albums should (necessarily - Burial, Goldie nonwithstanding) be the locus on which you should form opinions of a music like dubstep or jungle for that matter..surely the locus should be the DJ set?

Also I don't think the Mark One album is a particularly good example of what dubstep has to offer - I thought it was one dimensional and, to be frank, tired.

Fair point, but I was just following up the discussion about full-length albums by dubstep artists - and Mark One's is the only one I've got. I'd like to hear dubstep that sounded SIGNIFICANTLY different to Mark One; most of what my admittedly uneducated ear has encountered doesn't sound that different. DJ sets thing - sure, but the dubstep comps I've heard are no less monotonous.

 

[SIZZLE]

one spanner I'd just like to throw in the spokes here is that I think spending a lot of time thinking about what he/she is doing in SoundForge and how that shapes the sound might be a mistake, since for my money (not that there's much of it) the claim that it's all being done using SF exclusively may very well prove to be, along with other aspects of Burial's interview/biography not in strict congruence with factual reality. I don't want to spoil the mystery because I'm enjoying it as well, but as a producer who works largely in the soft environment there are things happening in this music (like the playing of pitched samples on a keyboard through reverbs) that SF is not capable of, being a waveform editor and not a sampler/synthesis environment (anyone prove me wrong here?!). It's theoretically possible that these effects are achieved using the described method, but it doesn't sound like it to me, and usually I find the simpler explanation to be the more true.

I think it's much more likely that this SoundForge explanation is a kind of a joke rabbit hole thrown up in front of the askers of 'what gear do you use?' as a way of saying 'that's not the point, but if you're dumb enough (sorry) to think it is, here's something to chew on for a while and break your teeth trying to figure it out'. In a way it's quite an elegant gesture, a way to make people look at the sound itself more closely and to turn the process into something opaque and only vaguely comprehensible.

I agree that this works incredibly well as an album (having not heard the whole album) and that in itself is an achievement that I've been thinking really hard about. One of those records you wish you had made yourself.

re: dubstep and physicality, I was quite skeptical although interested until I heard Mala and Joe Nice play in NYC at Dave Q's Dub War, at which point I was completely won over and began supporting the movement.

I also agree though that the goat stare, pure sub drop direction is a cul-de-sac similar to tech-step, however, tunes like request line, anti-war dub etc are showing a more colorful, less macho, mono-emotional direction forward which is the sound that I am interested in and supporting. I still love those heavy drop wobble tunes but want to see that sonic power paired with a bit more emotional range and more changes of mood WITHIN THE SAME TUNE. The much discussed Kode9 played a dub in of his called 'Find my way' or something like that here in Berlin when he played which alternated a nice digi-dubstep rootsy melodic passage with this brutal one note bass drop. The contrast he generated there and the sudden change of mood and atmosphere within the tune made it really standout for me. It's a remix of someone, he didn't/wouldn't mention who but it seems it will release, hopefully soon. I like some of that whole digi dub sound that Skream and others are doing now within dubstep but sometimes it misses what's good about all the involved ideas and can sound a bit timid or conservative in comparison to some of the alien wobble tunes. I'm waiting eagerly to hear more people combining these ideas and doing more tunes with BIG changes in them, arguably what makes Request Line so irresistable.

 

[bruno]

dj sets leave me cold, i don't know what this obsession with linking tracks is. right now i want to hear that 'you'll hurt' track in full glory but am resigned to rewinding that bit in the keysound mix over and over. but this mix feels right, it reminds me of my quest for a twilight music. this music in spirit is the same, i feel a kinship with this aesthetic. so props to you, mr blackdown.

k-punk, listen to loefah - goat stare. slow, hypnotic, uses a scanners sample. very dark!

 

[Logos]

Fair point, but I was just following up the discussion about full-length albums by dubstep artists - and Mark One's is the only one I've got. I'd like to hear dubstep that sounded SIGNIFICANTLY different to Mark One; most of what my admittedly uneducated ear has encountered doesn't sound that different. DJ sets thing - sure, but the dubstep comps I've heard are no less monotonous.

No I understand - but I feel quite strongly that the Mark One album sounds a million times poorer than the heights I've experienced during a heavy Mala/Loefah or Youngsta set. I don't even think it is close to dubstep sonically, though I concede its in the ball park.

I urge you to hear a Mala set if you can...the mixture of Loefah dubs with Digital mystikz tracks like Left Leg Out, Hunter, Earth Run Red...just enough dubs. Its an incredible, polyrhythmic, magical experience and not one dimensional at all.

 

[Logos]

one spanner I'd just like to throw in the spokes here is that I think spending a lot of time thinking about what he/she is doing in SoundForge and how that shapes the sound might be a mistake, since for my money (not that there's much of it) the claim that it's all being done using SF exclusively may very well prove to be, along with other aspects of Burial's interview/biography not in strict congruence with factual reality. I don't want to spoil the mystery because I'm enjoying it as well, but as a producer who works largely in the soft environment there are things happening in this music (like the playing of pitched samples on a keyboard through reverbs) that SF is not capable of, being a waveform editor and not a sampler/synthesis environment (anyone prove me wrong here?!). It's theoretically possible that these effects are achieved using the described method, but it doesn't sound like it to me, and usually I find the simpler explanation to be the more true.

I think it's much more likely that this SoundForge explanation is a kind of a joke rabbit hole thrown up in front of the askers of 'what gear do you use?' as a way of saying 'that's not the point, but if you're dumb enough (sorry) to think it is, here's something to chew on for a while and break your teeth trying to figure it out'. In a way it's quite an elegant gesture, a way to make people look at the sound itself more closely and to turn the process into something opaque and only vaguely comprehensible.

I think you are on to something, but equally theres tonnes of stuff you can do in soundforge from the synthesis point of view, if you are clever. It has waveform generators.

I do think, and can see from his sonics that he uses soundforge to sequence/layer. But theres definitely plug ins at work on delays, filtering of samples, and also the bass is quite technically sophisticated so probably some soft synths at work there.

But I do believe him when he taks about using soundforge as the primary tool of assemblage.

 

[k-punk]

I urge you to hear a Mala set if you can...the mixture of Loefah dubs with Digital mystikz tracks like Left Leg Out, Hunter, Earth Run Red...just enough dubs. Its an incredible, polyrhythmic, magical experience and not one dimensional at all.

Ok, will do...

 

[k-punk]

the claim that it's all being done using SF exclusively may very well prove to be, along with other aspects of Burial's interview/biography not in strict congruence with factual reality.

yeh, and doesn't the whole hyperstitional is it true or is it false dynamic add a whole other level of fascination?

 

[SIZZLE]

I should have mentioned that I have only used soundforge for the most basic stuff (usually recording internet radio) and I make my music in other software. However, SoundForge isn't capable of taking MIDI input is it? Some of those passages in the Burial stuff sound pretty clearly like a non-keyboard player playing a keyboard (if only from the pitches chosen, dumb though that may sound) and that alone points me off in other directions. Also, maybe this is my boring practicalism but I just find it deeply hard to believe that someone would put themselves to all the trouble of producing so many non-soundforge-ish effects, like the aformentioned alleged keyboard playing, the hard way when it would be so much easier in another situation. Anyway, as I said before it smells like a strategy designed to confound people like me who are compulsively breaking music down into how it was made whether we want to or not. It's effective in that none of us actually know exactly what was done but might be counter-productive in that I now find myself trying to break it down and spending time talking about that rather than the other much more important ideas on offer.

And yes, not to diss Mark One but what he does can only be loosely described as either dubstep or grime, imho. I'd say he is one of the major proponents of the slowed down tekstep drum and bass school which has few adherents in either scene. Him being from Manchester and being something of an outsider I think is relevent here. His being released and promoted by mike paradinas has given him and virus syndicate something of an exaggerated prominence in the media view of both scenes as well, again not to belittle their acheivments or music, but worth noting.

 

[SIZZLE]

yeh, and doesn't the whole hyperstitional is it true or is it false dynamic add a whole other level of fascination?

Of course! I hope my posts don't sound too critical as they're not really intended to be. As someone who spends a lot of time pushing bits of digital audio around I just wanted to point out that some bits of the story were a bit more mysterious than others. I joined the hype last week and did a blog post about Burial, actually sort of in response to an earlier stage of this thread, I'll just paste the relevant bit here:

"The Blackdown interview is pretty great actually, with a lot of nice ideas and imagery in it. Some people are complaining that 'this is blatantly someone from the scene pretending not to be who they are' and I say 'why shouldn't they do that?' All musician's identities are constructions loosely based on the reality of their lives, created through omission (most rappers pretend to not still live with their moms), outright fabrication (You know who you are) or allowing people to continue thinking wrong things that the press have made up (they are legion). To create a backstory that is hazy, mysterious and very fictional looking is just another reaction to all these postures, and I'd say equally legitimate, and for me actually more enjoyable as it leaves something to the imagination and maintains some of the mystery and depth that the music is trying to achieve. It also turns attention back to the actual sound, which in this case is a very good idea, because it sounds so good."

whole things here .

 

[tate]

I also agree though that the goat stare, pure sub drop direction is a cul-de-sac similar to tech-step, however, tunes like request line, anti-war dub etc are showing a more colorful, less macho, mono-emotional direction forward which is the sound that I am interested in and supporting.

As for the tunefulness of Request Line and the Burial tracks, I had the same thought the first moment that I read K-Punk on Burial's relationship to song or pop, namely, that it is interesting (and understandable) to see people associated with such an ultra-minimal music galvanize around tracks with undeniable melodic and emotional appeal.

Re: the site-specific physicality of dubstep in the soundsystem environment, I tend to resist the notion that this is "monotony transformed in the club environment" (K-Punk, above) and prefer to see it as one of dubstep's more provocative features (of course I realize that dubstep is not the only genre that foregrounds the experience of subs/the soundsystem) -- even though geography currently limits my ability to share the experience.

The site-specific dimension reminds of seeing Richard Serra's "Torqued Ellipses" for the first time in person: mammoth, towering, space-overwhelming minimal sculptures which the viewer is able to walk through and experience from multiple perspectives; the physicality of walking through the massive, intimidating, claustrophobic structures actually introduced physical feelings of mild disorientation and butterflies in the stomach. I would not have understood that dimension of these particular sculptures had I not immersed myself within them. And without question, the physical experience of being inside them comprises much of the essence of waht these particular works actually accomplish: the presentation of a particular kind of spatial singularity.

 

[Logos]

I should have mentioned that I have only used soundforge for the most basic stuff (usually recording internet radio) and I make my music in other software. However, SoundForge isn't capable of taking MIDI input is it? Some of those passages in the Burial stuff sound pretty clearly like a non-keyboard player playing a keyboard (if only from the pitches chosen, dumb though that may sound) and that alone points me off in other directions. Also, maybe this is my boring practicalism but I just find it deeply hard to believe that someone would put themselves to all the trouble of producing so many non-soundforge-ish effects, like the aformentioned alleged keyboard playing, the hard way when it would be so much easier in another situation.

Maybe its truly as simple as he doesn't have the gear or own, a midi keyboard. Not to get distracted here (cos the wherefores of his production aren't really the point) but some of the passages sound like he's pitched a sample around in soundforge, thats all. Don't need midi for that.

But like I said, don't want toi dilute this discussion by going off in tech-bore mode. Either way, I adore the mystery.