Borat

[ari]

Indeed, if Kubrick's request to Warner Bros, who owned and controlled the negative, had been fully respected, the film would have been withdrawn from world-wide circulation back in 1973; but Warner's just settled for Britain, as Kubrick resided there. Yes, Kubrick did have serious regrets about the first 20 minutes of the film, which is why he banished the movie from all further consideration

How do you know this, hundredmillionlifetimes?

I thought Kubrick banned the film because he got fed up with the controversy that surrounded it. I didn’t think it had anything to do with the films actual content.

What concerns did he have about the films first 20 minutes?

 

[UFO over easy]

sorry not to get back to this before, I was away for the weekend. seems like most of what I wanted to say has already been said, but here we go...

I said: But Borat (unlike Ali G) has no relation to any social reality whatsoever.

You said: That this is so blindingly obvious is exactly the reason it's not racist. At all.

I inferred from this that you meant that no text which bears no relation to social reality can be racist.

It seems now that you didn't mean that. So what did you mean? I assume you are wanting to put the stress on 'blindingly obvious', i.e. 'no text which BLINDINGLY OBVIOUSLY bears no relation to any social reality can be racist'.

Again, no. This is still simplifying what I'm saying. I said in my previous post, which I assume you read, that the case of Borat differs from cases like Protocols or Mein Kampf due to the fact that not only is it totally obvious that the stereotype is false, but that S B-C himself isn't trying to portray reality at all. In writing Mein Kampf, Hitler was trying to describe something he thought to be true. The creators of Borat had absolutely no intention of claiming that Borat is a realistic character; in fact, much of the humour is derived from the ridiculously exaggerated characters interaction with normal, but vaguely stunned people. To understand the film is to understand that the stereotype is false. There is no such necessity in either the Protocols or Mein Kampf. Refer back to the earlier discussion of intentions...

Well, there might be SOMEONE - more ignorant than US - who doesn't know...

I think someone's already said this, but how about the racist, homophobic jocks and rednecks themselves? The fact that you're even using those terms suggests you look down your nose at them too, so I don't really understand what you're trying to achieve with your sarcasm.. as far as I'm aware jock culture isn't considered particularly repellent in the US, or even over here by your standard rugby playing public school idiots. I personally welcome any negative publicity for these morons.

So, being a fiction and all, it therefore doesn't purport to portray the realities of racism either, all the film's characters being fictional an' all?

One character, the most important character to this discussion, is fictional. People's reactions to him are real. I would've thought this would be obvious if you'd seen any Borat.

Questions:

1) Is Dave Chappelle racist?

2) Is South Park racist, sexist, and classist?

3) Is The Simpsons sexist and classist?

hahaha... yep, I was just thinking I'd had this conversation before somewhere. I would absolutely love to hear some answers to these questions from the anti-Borat camp.

 

[Omaar]

One character, the most important character to this discussion, is fictional. People's reactions to him are real. I would've thought this would be obvious if you'd seen any Borat.

Aren't most of the other kazakhs in the film fictional too? And the prostitute who attends the dinner party? I think this fact strengthens your argument anyway: there are 2 worlds in the film one imaginary, and one real. If all the kazazh characters who appeared in the film were real rather than fictional, the concept of the film would be completely muddled. I found it difficult to figure out who was in on the joke sometimes, what was real and what was faked - the editing and camerawork suggested that some scenes were alot more elaborately constructed than they at first seemed. This seems to work to highlight the difference between these two worlds and contrast the different forms of prejudice explored by the different types of humour employed in the film.

Are the anti-borat camp more concerned with the reception of the film and whether it engenders racism or its own internal logic? I think some have stated upthread that they are more concerned with how it might be perceived rather than what the film makers are attempting to achieve?

 

[nomadologist]

If all the kazazh characters who appeared in the film were real rather than fictional, the concept of the film would be completely muddled. I found it difficult to figure out who was in on the joke sometimes, what was real and what was faked - the editing and camerawork suggested that some scenes were alot more elaborately constructed than they at first seemed.

http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2006/11/10/guide_to_borat/

A guide to everything that's real or faked in Borat. I read this last week and decided I had no interest in seeing the film.

 

[nomadologist]

Are the anti-borat camp more concerned with the reception of the film and whether it engenders racism or its own internal logic? I think some have stated upthread that they are more concerned with how it might be perceived rather than what the film makers are attempting to achieve?

I actually happen to think it could engender racism, but not that it is racist. The two can coexist. I would say the Chapelle Show does this same thing.

An anecdote about frat boys: I was with a group of people once and one person (a white frat brother from a big state uni in Virginia) actually tried to say that black people in the U.S. must be glad we took them as slaves so they don't have to be dying of AIDS in Africa. I shit you not. And then he insisted through hours of protracted 4 against 1 arguments that what he'd said was in no way racist, or wrong, or repulsive, etc.

Frat boys ARE the norm here. They ARE the "average" American boy. It is what you're supposed to aspire to be. They're heroes--gym class heroes, police, coaches, you name it. It's the gold standard for American "masculinity." For some of them to see themselves at their most hideous--well, I'd love to be a fly on that wall.

 

[Guybrush]

For some of them to see themselves at their most hideous--well, I'd love to be a fly on that wall.

But what if they go "Ha ha, Cohen really nailed them sad n00bs, I'd never fallen for that trick" rather than "Oopsie poopsie, maybe fratboy-life isn't all it's been cranked up to be when it comes to tolerance for others and all that" (excuse my piss-poor attempts at fratboynese, I've never been to America). I would think the former reaction is unfortunately more likely than the latter (but, then again, who am I to tell that).

 

[nomadologist]

The actual frat boys from the movie are suing for defamation, slander, loss of reputation, and a bunch of other things, claiming they'll never get work again, never be seen as the upstanding citizens they are, never have their good old boy privilege to fall back on again.

See it gets tricky here because even though there are so many racists, it's still seen as very unhip and backward to be racist. So no one wants to think they are racist. Being confronted with such flagrant waft of their own funk, I think, will get a lot of frat boys really angry and upset. It might tip the scales so they are seen as rubes here by more people.

Performance art, anyone?

 

[Omaar]

http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2006/11/10/guide_to_borat/

A guide to everything that's real or faked in Borat. I read this last week and decided I had no interest in seeing the film.

Thanks very much, that was interesting. What in particular was it about that article that made you not want to see the film?

 

[Guybrush]

It might tip the scales so they are seen as rubes here by more people.

But is that not how they are perceived? I've always thought that the frat and jock ranks are filled with people from rural areas or middle-sized towns.

 

[nomadologist]

It actually sounds kinda slapsticky to me, which is not my thing generally. Plus, the gags have been done over here so many times, by so many comedians, it's hard to see it as anything but derivative. I liked the Ali G and Bruno characters a lot but I didn't get too into Borat even on the show because the camp element (which I love) just didn't seem to be there in the right way. I think he gets Borat a little wrong. Borat should be subtler in his sexism--it would be more effective that way.

 

[nomadologist]

But is that not how they are perceived? I've always thought that the frat and jock ranks are filled with people from rural areas or middle-sized towns.

Nope, they're the "cool" kids at school. The bullies. In urban areas, at public schools (here that means government-run) thugs are. But there's no real way to account for the urban and the suburban/exurban/rural phenomena all at once. The vast number of (white) high school boys model themselves carefully after frat boys like you'd see on the latest season of The Real World.

 

[UFO over easy]

Aren't most of the other kazakhs in the film fictional too? And the prostitute who attends the dinner party?

Hmm, I may have just given away the fact that I haven't actually seen the movie and am basing everything I've said on the TV sketches, which I like a lot

 

[D84]

Yeah I'm beginning to see how you British have acquired a distaste for Borat. I saw a news snippet last night of him at an Australian press conference: rather crass and unfunny in person/impromptu - so far.

 

[nomadologist]

I've heard 4 really horrible reports about it not being funny now, all from people whose opinions I trust: to the tune of, "it's sooo not funny that it's not worth your time/money" and they said that the "third world" stereotype Borat creates is really stupid and ruins the whole thing. Well, one of them just said "woah" in a text message. But the last one said they thought most of the audience laughing hardest hadn't seen the Ali G show at all. Don't know why they thought that...

I might be getting curious about this movie now. Dammit. I'm still not giving whatever his distribution company is any of my hardearned money though.

 

[hundredmillionlifetimes]

How do you know this, hundredmillionlifetimes?

I thought Kubrick banned the film because he got fed up with the controversy that surrounded it. I didn’t think it had anything to do with the films actual content.

What concerns did he have about the films first 20 minutes?

How do you know this, hundredmillionlifetimes?

I thought Kubrick banned the film because he got fed up with the controversy that surrounded it. I didn’t think it had anything to do with the films actual content.

What concerns did he have about the films first 20 minutes?

How do you know this, or more pertinently, how can you make such internally contradictory claims?

I'm basing it on the 60-odd books and hundreds of articles I've read over the years on SK and his films, and on the opinions of his wife Christiane, his daughters Vivian, Anya and Katharina, his nephews and colleagues, and many others in an actual position to know. Dispute all this if you like, but at least try to make some - consistent - sensein your response.

First, to repeat, the film was not banned. On the contrary, John Trevelyan, the then Chairman of The British Board of Film Classification (from 1956-71), passed the film with an "X" certificate and said it was "...an important social document of outstanding brilliance and quality". It opened in Britain in January 1972 soon provoking a great deal of controversy - to the extent that it only ran in one cinema (the Warner West End in London) for over a year. After the controversy seemed to have filtered away, the film then went on general release for a number of weeks - so unleashing a new, more determined hysterical hate campaign. On Kubrick's request, Warner's quietly withdrew the film from circulation, nobody even being aware or noticing, until many years later when a cinema tried to show the film ... Nobody imposed anything on anyone, it was Kubrick's own choice, albeit in a heated, seemingly threatening environment. Ya think a racist fuck like Borat/Cohen is going to withdraw his moviefilm because a few people in the medja expose it as racist shite? He's lapping it up.

Secondly, are you suggesting that there was no connection between the film's content and the controversy surrounding it?

Maybe he should have tried to ban the controversy instead? Ban people's views, however ridiculous, instead? [The film medium being innocent and neutral and harmless but the print and broadcast media eeeevil?].

 

[nomadologist]

the problem is that nothing is neutral, not even academic discourse, or the print media

 

[nomadologist]

everything can be reduced to participation in the form of assent or dissent, right? because everything is politically determined. and bad pop art is racist for the same reasons.

P.S. I'm starting to think that I have a bigger problem theoretically with Borats performance of third worldliness than with his performance of the vaguely "Baltic." Based on reports.

 

[hundredmillionlifetimes]

Also, is Hundredmillion saying that being PC necessarily precludes being racist? Interesting.

No, he's saying that Political Correctness is a (ridiculing) label that the American Right throughout the 1990s, using all manner of hysterical provocation, [so effective that liberals eventually joined in on all the fun] coined ironically to describe, demonise and ostracise (and depoliticise) anti-racism. But you already knew that, didn't you?

 

[nomadologist]

Have you ever been here? Ever? There were a lot of racist people who clothed themselves in the PC lamb in the 90s. They lived in affluent suburbs and thought that if they let their children listen to hip-hop, it wasn't racist to be afraid of any black man you saw on the street at night. They voted probably 50/50 liberal/conservative.

 

[nomadologist]

Re your exhaustive study of Stanley Kubrick--why is it that those most concerned with fantasmic confabultion and inflation spend entire lifetimes writing and talking and writing in the service of institutionalizing the power of such filth as A Clockwork Orange. Interesting how this film manages to create Brechtian "distanciation" or whatever you said using mere mise-en-scene, yet Borat, with its moronically over-the-top performance and obnoxiously obvious narrative fictionality and unreality, can't.