why do you think us dnb/grime/dubstep producers never quite get it right?

[stelfox]

Chris, i'm not sure if i read the working class immigrant roots thing, but you're sort of on track with me. it seems that american producers are attracted to the extremities of the music like the kneckbreak-fast breaks and insane basslines and they don't really get the actual style and culture of it.
there's alot of things that drive the music/culture in uk that we don't have here. dubplates, pirate radio, etc. and they get replaced with this "extreme"ness. i dunno, like i said, someone prove me wrong. i hope there's loads of great us producers that i haven't discovered yet that will impress me. thanks for posting that mix, i'll definitely check it out.

well, really this pushing of the extremities of D&B kind of came in with no u turn and they were from here.
that's really the point i began to lose interest in drum & bass, because it lost all its sexiness and became music that you're better off pogoing than wining to.
the switch from 2step to grime is a bit different, because i found the discovery of a completely english hip-hop vocabulary quite thrilling.
the music wasn't as sassy as 2step but it was about creating something entirely new and different, rather than going to the outer reaches of something that already existed, if you see what i mean?
dubstep, i really don't want to talk about because, far from wanting to wine or pogo, i just feel deeply depressed when i hear it.

 

[Logan Sama]

I meant the actual functionality of Grime. What the tunes are made to achieve. What swing and timbre to use to find the resonance with the MC or crowd to get that big reload in.

Especially as the raves, radio and general listening audience are generally a completely different type of people than those who do Grime over here.

 

[Blackdown]

well, really this pushing of the extremities of D&B kind of came in with no u turn and they were from here.

It did begin with No U Turn and Bad Company but there were guys (of all nationalities) who took it waaaay further, the worst of which is Dieselboy (who's american). you heard some of his stuff dave? i think it was this one that killed me off.

 

[stelfox]

yeah, i found it kinda funny that the ed rush and optical, no u turn techstep/neurofunk (i still really don't like that genre name) stuff was where a lot of american attention actually *turned* to d&b. accordingly, i actually think the initial point of this thread is pretty valid. i don't think americans "get" british street culture, at least not in the same way that us brits "get" US street culture, anyway – otherwise you'd have rappers fully conversant with grime and dubstep, in the same way grime artists are with US hip-hop, Jamaican music etc. the only time i've got anything close to this was talking to bun-b and he's really not typical as far as his listening, interests and worldview are concerned.
The people from the states who get into British street music tend not to be very street at all and will approach it in a different way as a result. This is not to be disrespectful in any way, because people like DJ C and Ripley are great examples of people who know tons about the music but, because of their background, really get to play with it and make links that many people immersed in these genres probably wouldn't, but in some cases it does get a bit muddled and wrong, like dieselboy. then again he doesn't make any more of a hash of d&b that tons of breakcore people, or loads of contemporary british producers do. and, yes, sadly, thanks to hanging about in the bay area quite a bit and writing for american magazines, i have unfortunately been exposed to way too much american d&b.

 

[swears]

Is dnb still a "street" form of music from the late 90s onwards anyway?

 

[Blackdown]

Is dnb still a "street" form of music from the late 90s onwards anyway?

the heart of d&b is now virtual... it's AIM and DoA, not Hackney and Music House.

 

[john eden]

It's still "street" if you are an advertising executive, I reckon.

I.e. it isn't.

 

[dHarry]

worst of which is Dieselboy (who's american)

He's Irish actually! But he did his thing in the US, so it's still a fair comment.

 

[dHarry]

It's still "street" if you are an advertising executive, I reckon.

I.e. it isn't.

The most bitterly ironic thing I've possibly ever heard was a DnB-lite backing to a Cow and Gate "step up" (geddit?) baby milk formula TV ad a couple of years ago - an ad exec with a cruel sense of humour / /

Another strange thing was how fast DnB became a staple of shampoo/cosmetics advertising in the 90's... maybe it was because post-intelligent/artcore jazzy 2-step (pre-UKG 2-step, that is) could so easily sound smooth-jazz-bland?

 

[UFO over easy]

He's Irish actually! But he did his thing in the US, so it's still a fair comment.

I don't think it is really, still. He's a DJ. I think like Youngsta, he's done a few remixes and bits and bobs, but not produced any tunes of his own. He is guilty of playing overly hard, dark stuff pitched up to +8, but he wasn't the first to do it and he's not the guy most obsessed with "extremity" anymore either.

The whole therapy sessions thing is geared towards harder, faster, more aggressive etc in a far more worrying way in my opinion. Dieselboy at least seems to have a sense of humour about what he's doing; something I really can't hear in producers like Limewax or Tech Itch's recent stuff (which has irritatingly transferred to his dubstep productions.)

 

[elgato]

The people from the states who get into British street music tend not to be very street at all and will approach it in a different way as a result. This is not to be disrespectful in any way, because people like DJ C and Ripley are great examples of people who know tons about the music but, because of their background, really get to play with it and make links that many people immersed in these genres probably wouldn't, but in some cases it does get a bit muddled and wrong, like dieselboy. then again he doesn't make any more of a hash of d&b that tons of breakcore people, or loads of contemporary british producers do. and, yes, sadly, thanks to hanging about in the bay area quite a bit and writing for american magazines, i have unfortunately been exposed to way too much american d&b.

this hits the nail pretty hard imo. i dont think its specific to the US at all, it seems to me to be anywhere where people are detached from the culture from which it was born. thats not to say great music cant come of such developments, by any stretch of the imagination, its just going to be hit and miss whether the parties elsewhere get the right end of the (or a) stick. for an example on topic, pieter k... a ridiculous distance from london jungle and hardcore, or even techstep, but brilliant in his own way

 

[daddek]

.

 

[evergreen]

Chris, i'm not sure if i read the working class immigrant roots thing, but you're sort of on track with me. it seems that american producers are attracted to the extremities of the music like the kneckbreak-fast breaks and insane basslines and they don't really get the actual style and culture of it.
there's alot of things that drive the music/culture in uk that we don't have here. dubplates, pirate radio, etc. and they get replaced with this "extreme"ness. i dunno, like i said, someone prove me wrong. i hope there's loads of great us producers that i haven't discovered yet that will impress me. thanks for posting that mix, i'll definitely check it out.

i think this is right on. there's a difference between how the sonic extremities in dnb & dubstep have been employed in the US vs. UK. with No U Turn, the music seemed to take the entire preceding template of jungle, the junglist beats & bass dynamic, to an extreme. it was a radical style that nonetheless sounded internally consistent. meanwhile, i was listening to the 1998 Hive album Devious Methods last week, which is quite enraptured by jungle's fast breakbeats, but replaces booming sub-bass with guitar riffs and curly turntablist flourishes. (i'm not familiar with any of Jungle Sky or F-111 etc. though...)

i feel like the 'British' elements of UK street music (dnb/dubstep) - the ravey/garagey uptempo sensibility - can be treated a bit like a novelty in contrast to US street music, throwing the latter's 'American' qualities - the rough & ready hip-hop backbone (and, i dunno, distortion - where does that come from?) - into sharp relief. as such, a lot of American dnb/dubstep tracks read like commentary on how British music can shape & inform American music, rather than how Americans can make British music.

 

[Slothrop]

It's still "street" if you are an advertising executive, I reckon.

I.e. it isn't.

That might be a bit of a london thing, mind. AFAICT in other places it's still definitely there as an option for working class lads getting pilled up and losing it at the weekends. Arguably it's lost the cultural content that rode on top of that, though...

 

[Slothrop]

this hits the nail pretty hard imo. i dont think its specific to the US at all, it seems to me to be anywhere where people are detached from the culture from which it was born. thats not to say great music cant come of such developments, by any stretch of the imagination, its just going to be hit and miss whether the parties elsewhere get the right end of the (or a) stick.

Since acieed was basically a slightly misunderstood british version of something american, it's definitely a[/a] stick.

In drum and bass in particular there seems to be a lot of good stuff not from the UK because people coming up with their own new version of it - whether by accident or by design - is no bad thing for dnb at the moment...

 

[Precious Cuts]

I have to put in a (long) word here for Toronto, because I think its a huge part of and also a huge exception to how jungle spread in the rest of North America. Jungle was way bigger here way earlier, and Toronto pretty much just followed the London sound. I think it fit because of similar demographics (it was always pretty thoroughly working class) and a lot of UK family connections. I think Nomos probably knows a lot more than I do about its emergence.

The production game seemed to lag because everyone wanted to be DJ. Despite there being literally thousands of amateur jungle DJs in toronto, only a handful of guys involved with Vinyl Syndicate really got into production. They released a few local classics and the infamous "Man of Steal" (superman remix) on Urban Takeover. Dubplate Pressure by Mystical is probably the #1 anthem and epitomizes the sound of jungle in Toronto. Very different from the US version. Theres a good write up on it up on autonomics blog from a while ago, but the audio link seems to have stopped working. Jump up and ragga were the two biggest sounds in Toronto when I first went to the parties. Kenny Ken, Brockie, DJ Hype and Nicky Blackmarket were crowd favorites. Stevie Hyper D, GQ and Fearless were the top MCs. Good vibes. Tons of weed smoke in the air, lots of airhorns and lighters and whistles (and glowsticks ), rastas skanking by the rear stacks and all that. I remember Champion DJ by Top Cat and Ready or Not remix being two of the biggest tunes in toronto. Next Junction parties killed it. particularly the one where Congo Natty made their 1st north american appearance at the Ice Sports hockey arena. that's one of the last really good shows I went to. Toronto never had much in the way of production, but the local DJs were rude. at one time Capital J was arguably the best (in an unabashedly low-brow, crowd-pleasing, Joker records style) live jungle performer in the world and routinely made a fool of the UK dj's by blowing the roof off the place right after the headliner.

Here's a few fliers pulled from Sigma7's (the promoter behind Syrous) forum with his descriptions. I was too young to get to any of the early Syrous parties but theres some great audio of early UK dj's in Canada.

The first UK jungle dj to play a set on north american soil:

ITLE: Syrous #02 - 'Judgement Day '
LOCATION: Roller World, North Toronto
DATE: May 7th 1994
AUDIO: Kenny Ken {A}{B} - John E {A}{B}
ATTENDANCE: 1500

FEATURED DJ:
Dj Kenny Ken & MC Dr. No

MEMORIES: The venue was wicked and new. A sort of futuristic Roller Rink neer Steeles and the HWY 27. We had an amazing Lazer show, crazy projections and some lit up weather balloons above the dance floor (Thanks to Q). Crazy night, wicked vibes, unforgetable. Judgement Day set standards.

Marcus (of Delerium): "Our first exposure to an english presentation of jungle music. Massive anthems with Kenny's wicked mixing style. This is when he was at his best. Big tunes from Dead Dread to General Levy. This night truly changed the way we all presented jungle in this city. We were still mixing alot of hardcore in back then. After this it was straight jungle. Ragga jungle really exploded after this set"

DESIGN BY: (concept) Chris Smart, (work) Terry

another big night:

TITLE: Syrous #04 - 'Renegades '
LOCATION: Mississuaga Lumber City
DATE: October 4th 1994
AUDIO: Darren Jay {A}{B}, Jumpin Jack Frost {A}{B}, Rap {A}{B}, Trace {A}{B}, Slipmaster J {A}{B}
ATTENDANCE: 4000

FEATURED DJ:
Jumpin Jack Frost, Slipmaster Jay, Darren Jay, Dj Rap, Dj Trace, MC Ryme Tyme, MC Dr. No , plus Local Toronto Dj's .

MEMORIES: Oh what a venue. 2 huge high ceiling wharehouses connected to each other. Im guessing when i say it was a massive 'Lumber City' all i remember is something about lumber. LOL. Jungle Explodes in Toronto! 2 companies, 2 rooms, thousands of people. Historic event. I didnt do much work on this one, just promotion. Too many people doing things. And of course when working with another company the advertising tends to be different from your own.

DESIGN BY: (concept) Vito, John E, (work) Terry

one last one. the jump up sound touches down:

TITLE: Syrous #11 - ' The Most Wanted '
LOCATION: The Docks - Toronto
DATE: December 2nd, 1995
AUDIO: Hype {1A}{1B}{2A}{2B} Phantasy {A}{B}
ATTENDANCE: 1800

FEATURED DJ:
Dj Phantasy, Dj Hype, MC Fearless

MEMORIES: Another wicked night. Fresh music with 2 packed arenas. Back in 1995 the Docks nightclub was just beginning, The lakeshore location was a great party venue. The Toronto skyline looks beautifull from the Docks and the occasional massive tanker/ship floats by extremely close. From time to time you can hear one of their horns screaming as they enter the port, its fukin loud. Horn crew make some noise!

DESIGN BY: (concept) Chris Smart, Rob, (work) Terry

 

[Blackdown]

i guess the point is, if the cultural traits of the exporters doesnt match the importers, then to the former they'll never 'quite get it right' because they'll inevitably be some local influence or interpretation.

but hasn't it always been thus? one man's 'getting it's not quite right' is anothers' 'next step for the sound/scene etc' ie US garage -> uk garage or chicago house -> uk acid house/rave.

 

[spotrusha]

I meant the actual functionality of Grime. What the tunes are made to achieve. What swing and timbre to use to find the resonance with the MC or crowd to get that big reload in.

Especially as the raves, radio and general listening audience are generally a completely different type of people than those who do Grime over here.

exactly, this is helping prove my point. there was something about those first ukg tunes that hinted at grime-to-come (pulse x, oh no, etc) that just begged for someone to spit bars of brittish slang on it. would it sound the same with an american mc on it? no way, i wouldn't even think of it. so, i understand that american producers have to carve their own niche, but like i said, what i love about the uk scene the most gets lost in the translation and replaced with things i'm not so much into (crunk, irony, etc)

as far as drum n bass goes, just as much was lost in the translation of jungle in the 90's. when i watch the metalheadz video, i'm so jealous of the vibe and crowd at those blue note nights. especially when i think of the retard conventions that i've witnessed at american jungle nights (ufo pants-clad nuts with goggles on their heads)

i'd also like to urge everyone to watch this:
and think of all of the similarities to the metalheadz documentary (ie. every top boy proclaiming dnb to be "the future" etc). try not to get too bummed-out on dubstep's imminent demise (albeit faroff)

 

[Don Rosco]

Yeah, just latching on to the testosterone side of Jungle was hardly exclusive to the US. The Germans had their own brand of heaviness, the UK has it's own, as do the dutch etc etc etc. It's understandable I suppose. That manky shit is a lot easier for people to 'get' than the slightly sinister, dualistic, top-notch shit we all know and love.

He's Irish actually! But he did his thing in the US, so it's still a fair comment.

That's Dara you're thinking of, he's Irish to the hilt. Dieselboy is all American, afaik.



@ precious cuts - great post on Toronto, thanks. Those nights look really good.

 

[Logan Sama]

i guess the point is, if the cultural traits of the exporters doesnt match the importers, then to the former they'll never 'quite get it right' because they'll inevitably be some local influence or interpretation.

but hasn't it always been thus? one man's 'getting it's not quite right' is anothers' 'next step for the sound/scene etc' ie US garage -> uk garage or chicago house -> uk acid house/rave.

Whole heartedly agree

I think that if you are trying to interpret a music, you shouldn't look for acceptance from those who originated it. Simply make what pleases you and go with it