War In Iran

gek-opel

entered apprentice
You could have a leaner BBC tho, surely? Or at least threaten it with such a fate as a method of getting it to improve its quality...

I'm unconvinced that it is impossible to get thru anti-Murdoch laws, merely that the will is simply not there. If a law takes (I don't know) six months minimum to be passed, that's a short enough time to absorb even maximum flak incurred from the wrath of the digger. It is simply the case that we exist in a time of a vastly curtailed "possible", which is the abiding, desperately sad, feature of our politics.
 

turtles

in the sea
I've no doubt any assault on any Muslim country by the US is "going to be seen as a continuation of the US's aggression against muslim countries" though I do have trouble taking seriously anyone who plays into this tired notion that US foreign policy is a war on Islam (not sure if this is actually your view, or whether you're just reiterating how it will be portrayed by some).
I'm saying that this is how it is being portrayed by those in the islamic world who wish to take advantage of these things for their own propaganda, and that the US continues to do exactly what their caricature of them would be expected to do (which kinda doesn't make it a caricature I don't think it's the "islam vs. the west" angle is entirely true, or at all the whole story (it's about power, mostly), but I also do think there is an element of it that is true.
You did say "10s of thousands of innocent civilians". Unless the US can't tell the difference between chemical labs and high population ares this figure is way off the map. How many were killed in Clinton's disgusting (*cough* Sudan *cough*) escapade?
Indirectly, it is estimated that 10s of thousands did die from diseases that would have otherwise been preventable with the medicine from the Al-shifa plant. Now given, Iran probably has the resources to avoid that kind of result to some degree, but my broader point is that the secondary, indirect results of these types of attacks on a country's infrastructure can often be quite devastating, and it seems like these kind of things are very rarely considered when discussions of attacks are given (they're what, collateral damage of collateral damage?)

Oh dear, this is a joke, right?[\QUOTE]
I DO NOT TRUST US GOV'T INTELLIGENCE. :D Though I'm by no means convinced that they aren't trying to produce nuclear weapons. They are clearly posturing like they might be.

What difference does their comparative lack of wealth and power make? Or is this just a handy button to push on this site? Iran's nuclear ambitions might not be a direct threat to Washington itself but they're certainly destablising to the region, unless you subscribe to the old MAD doctrine which is probably our best hope if Iran does go fully nuke. I'd recommend you read this
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2008094,00.html
but since TGA is a liberal centrist I suspect you're probably going to dismiss out of hand.
Oh i just get tired of the strong picking on the weak, that's all. Bleeding hearted bastard that I am.

And look, I don't want ANY country to get nukes, and I am by no means defending the Iranian gov't as a great bunch of guys. But jesus, I don't think a single thing the US is doing right now is making the situation anything but worse.
 
Last edited:

crackerjack

Well-known member
You could have a leaner BBC tho, surely? Or at least threaten it with such a fate as a method of getting it to improve its quality...

Rather than leaner I'd take fragmentation. The move of several departments to Manchester is a start. Break up the West London hegemony, force it to speak directly to vast parts of the country currently gettinng the short end. The problem with emphasising 'quality' is that it often means unpopular (not saying it should, but in the current climate it does). A national licence-funded broadcaster is going to struggle to justify itself if it only shows 'quality' dramas and docs when so many people just want Bargain Hunt and DIY shows.

I'm unconvinced that it is impossible to get thru anti-Murdoch laws, merely that the will is simply not there. If a law takes (I don't know) six months minimum to be passed, that's a short enough time to absorb even maximum flak incurred from the wrath of the digger. It is simply the case that we exist in a time of a vastly curtailed "possible", which is the abiding, desperately sad, feature of our politics.

i'd love to think you're right and that it could be done. But it's not just a question of withstanding Murdoch's onslaught while any bill is passing - it's the certain knowledge that his empire will oppose you at the next election, and the one after that etc etc. I was gutted when The sun backed Labour in 97. They needed to know they could win without it (which they could). Sadly they've been on his leash ever since.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
I don't think it's the "islam vs. the west" angle is entirely true, or at all the whole story (it's about power, mostly), but I also do think there is an element of it that is true.

Since you brought up the Clinton-era Sudanese bombing, would it be pertinent to mention Bosnia and Kosovo here? Not to mention Sudan itself. If the US was really all about pushing back the frontiers of Islam under the disguise of humanitarian intervention there could be no better place than Darfur.

I DO NOT TRUST US GOV'T INTELLIGENCE. Though I'm by no means convinced that they aren't trying to produce nuclear weapons. They are clearly posturing like they might be.

It's not JUST US intelligence; it's the UN, the EU, their neighbours... I'm not qualified to go into the scientific data but a major oil exporter having an urgent need for nuclear power...maybe the Mullahs are all eco-warriors worried about our ozone, maybe not.

I don't think a single thing the US is doing right now is making the situation anything but worse.

Not a single thing? So you're opposed to UN sanctions against Iran until it complies with the UN?
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Rather than leaner I'd take fragmentation. The move of several departments to Manchester is a start. Break up the West London hegemony, force it to speak directly to vast parts of the country currently gettinng the short end. The problem with emphasising 'quality' is that it often means unpopular (not saying it should, but in the current climate it does). A national licence-funded broadcaster is going to struggle to justify itself if it only shows 'quality' dramas and docs when so many people just want Bargain Hunt and DIY shows..

Agreed- the west London chattering classes bias is sickening. However, I think there are strong arguments for bringing in advertising to BBC1, and selling off R1 and R2 without affecting adversely their programming.


i'd love to think you're right and that it could be done. But it's not just a question of withstanding Murdoch's onslaught while any bill is passing - it's the certain knowledge that his empire will oppose you at the next election, and the one after that etc etc. I was gutted when The sun backed Labour in 97. They needed to know they could win without it (which they could). Sadly they've been on his leash ever since.

It still remains possible. The alternative is to have him encroach ever further (see ITV partial takeover...)
 
Your final statement is a little confusing, in what sense does the BBC collude with war crimes as a matter of policy? What are these mysterious war crimes?

This must be one of the most disingenuous questions I've read on this forum; your selective amnesia is as impressive as that of crack'n'whack. Are we to assume that next you'll be telling us you're a holocaust denier, because your tone here, as with crackered's ravings, is equally dispicable ... ? [and no, I haven't confused you with sombody else, Hayek-loving vimothy].

Crackhead snivelled: "I, for one, would be happy to be called 'BBC apologist'. i think it's an oustanding broadcaster, provides a wealth of good programmes and radio and helps tilt the national tone away from the far-right tabloid foghorns as well as shrill nincompoops like howmanyfeckintimes and his spiritual home at LT".

What fairy strawman are you constructing here? My views have nothing to do with Lenin's Tomb or any other blog. Furthermore, you're evading the original issue (due to your chronic amnesia, no doubt), the topic is Iran, concerning which I made a reference to BBC's coverage, as well as that of Iraq, so I'll repeat once again: Mr Crakerjack, you wrote in a post here sentiments that clearly revealed your innocence concerning BBC broadcast journalism ideology, that cynically articulated your admiration for your confidence in believing what you are told to believe, and doing so with a patronising smirk towards those who know that this is not the case. And when it was here - comprehensively - reported that the BBC's coverage, of the war crime that is the US-led Iraq invasion, was systematically biased in favour of the war criminals, your response was simply to seek refuge in yet further reactionary abuse. All you have succeeded in doing here, apart from indicating your total indifference and ignorance of geopolitics, is demonstrate to us that you don't know your arse from your elbow.
 
However, I think there are strong arguments for bringing in advertising to BBC1, and selling off R1 and R2 without affecting adversely their programming.

That would be a disaster, gek. The problems with the BBC, going back well over a decade, have to do with its ossified organisational structure and its compromised relations with - and interference from - government.
 

tht

akstavrh
Your final statement is a little confusing, in what sense does the BBC collude with war crimes as a matter of policy? What are these mysterious war crimes?

hmlt why do you engage -however derisorily- with the likes of this nudnik cunt?
 
Last edited:

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
...it's aiming for a particular segment of society, ie "the news watchers," mostly the more wealthy, older sector of society...

If young people would rather watch Hollyoaks or Big Brother than the evening news, that's their lookout. The only person with any responsibility to keep you well-informed about world events is you.
 
CacklingHack, shooting himself in the foot once again, opined: "You [Turtles] did say "10s of thousands of innocent civilians". Unless the US can't tell the difference between chemical labs and high population ares this figure is way off the map. How many were killed in Clinton's disgusting (*cough* Sudan *cough*) escapade?"


Really, sparkler, is this the best you can do? Are you so congenitally precluded from undertaking any simple research for yourself on the topic, or would that be too ideologically inconvenient? The consequences of this act of US terrorism have been well documented, but to take one instance, and only one instance, of insightful commentary on the bombing, I think Mr Chomsky has considerably more to say than anything emanating from the corrosive hackland where you choose to reside.

Or take the destruction of the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Sudan, one little footnote in the record of state terror, quickly forgotten. What would the reaction have been if the bin Laden network had blown up half the pharmaceutical supplies in the U.S. and the facilities for replenishing them? We can imagine, though the comparison is unfair, the consequences are vastly more severe in Sudan. That aside, if the U.S. or Israelor England were to be the target of such an atrocity, what would the reaction be? In this case we say, "Oh, well, too bad, minor mistake, let's go on to the next topic, let the victims rot." Other people in the world don't react like that. When bin Laden brings up that bombing, he strikes a resonant chord, even among those who despise and fear him; and the same, unfortunately, is true of much of the rest of his rhetoric. Though it is merely a footnote, the Sudan case is nonetheless highly instructive.

[ ... ]


With these truisms in mind, let's have a look at some of the material that was readily available in the mainstream press. I disregard the extensive analysis of the validity of Washington's pretexts, of little moral significance in comparison to the question of consequences. A year after the attack, "without the lifesaving medicine [the destroyed facilities] produced, Sudan's death toll from the bombing has continued, quietly, to rise... Thus, tens of thousands of people- many of them children - have suffered and died from malaria, tuberculosis, and other treatable diseases... [Al-Shifa] provided affordable medicine for humans and all the locally available veterinary medicine in Sudan. It produced 90 percent of Sudan's major pharmaceutical products... Sanctions against the Sudan make it impossible to import adequate amounts of medicines required to cover the serious gap left by the plant's destruction ... The action taken by Washington on August 20, 1998, continues to deprive the people of Sudan of needed medicine. Millions must wonder how the International Court of Justice in The Hague will celebrate this anniversary" (Jonathan Belke, Boston Globe, August 22, 1999). Germany Ambassador to Sudan writes that "It is difficult to assess how many people int his poor African country died as a consequence of the destruction of the Al-Shifa factory, but several tens of thousands seems a reasonable guess" (Werner Daum,"Universalism and the West," Harvard International Review, Summer 2001).

"The loss of this factory is a tragedy for the rural communities who need these medicines" (Tom Carnaffin, technical manager with "intimate knowledge" of the destroyed plant, quoted in Ed Vulliamy, Henry McDonald, Shyam Bhatia, and Martin Bright, London Observer, August 23, 1998, lead story, page 1). Al-Shifa "provided 50 percent of Sudan's medicines, and its destruction has left the country with no supplies of chloroquine, the standard treatment for malaria," but months later, the British Labour government refused requests "to resupply chloroquine inemergency relief until such time as the Sudanese can rebuild their pharmaceutical production" (Patrick Wintour, Observer, December 20, 1998). The Al-Shifa facility was "the only one producing TB drugs - for more than 100,000 patients, at about 1 British pound a month. Costlier imported versions are not an option for most of them- or for their husbands, wives and children, who will have been infected since. Al-Shifa as also the only factory making veterinary drugs in this vast, mostly pastoralist, country. Its specialty was drugs to kill the parasites which pass from herds toherders, one of the Sudan's principal causes of infant mortality" (James Astill, Guardian,October 2, 100).The silent death toll continues to mount.

These accounts are by respected journalists writing in leading journals. The one exception is the most knowledgeable of the sources just cited, Jonathan Belke, regional program manager for the Near East Foundation, who writes on the basis of field experience in Sudan. The Foundation is a respected development institution dating backto World War I. It provides technical assistance to poor countries in the Middle East and Africa, emphasizing grassroots locally-run development projects, and operates with close connections to major universities, charitable organizations, and the State Department, including well-known Middle East diplomats and prominent figures in Middle Easteducational and developmental affairs. According to credible analyses readily available to us, then, proportional to population, the destruction of Al-Shifa is as if the bin Laden network, in a single attack on the U.S.caused "hundreds of thousands of people-many of them children-to suffer and die fromeasily treatable diseases," though the analogy, as noted, is unfair. Sudan is "one of the least developed areas in the world. Its harsh climate, scattered populations, health hazards and crumbling infrastructure combine to make life for many Sudanese a strugglefor survival"; a country with endemic malaria, tuberculosis, and many other diseases, where "periodic outbreaks of meningitis or cholera are not uncommon," so affordable medicines are a dire necessity (Jonathan Belke and Kamal El-Faki, technical reports from the field for the Near East Foundation). It is, furthermore, a country with limited arable land, a chronic shortage of potable water, a huge death rate, little industry, anunserviceable debt, wracked with AIDS, devastated by a vicious and destructive internal war, and under severe sanctions. What is happening within is largely speculation, including Belke's (quite plausible) estimate that within a year tens of thousands had already "suffered and died" as the result of the destruction of the major facilities for producing affordable drugs and veterinary medicines.

This only scratches the surface. Human Rights Watch immediately reported that as an immediate consequence of the bombing, "all UN agencies based in Khartoum have evacuated their American staff, ashave many other relief organizations," so that "many relief efforts have been postponed indefinitely, including a crucial one run by the U.S.-based International RescueCommittee [in a government town] where more than fifty southerners are dying daily"; these are regions in "southern Sudan, where the UN estimates that 2.4 million people areat risk of starvation," and the "disruption in assistance" for the "devastated population" may produce a "terrible crisis. What is more, the U.S. bombing "appears to have shattered the slowly evolving move toward compromise between Sudan's warring sides" and terminated promising steps towards a peace agreement to end the civil war that had left 1.5 million dead since 1981, which might have also led to "peace in Uganada and the entire Nile Basin." The attack apparently "shattered...the expected benefits of a political shift at the heart of Sudan's Islamist government" towards a "pragmatic engagement with the outside world," alongwith efforts to address Sudan's domestic crises, to end support for terrorism, and to reduce the influence of radical Islamists (Mark Huband, Financial Times, September 8,1998). Insofar as such consequences ensued, we may compare the crime in Sudan to the assassination of Lumumba, which helped plunge the Congo into decades of slaughter, still continuing, or the overthrow of the democratic government of Guatemala in 1954, which led to 40 years of hideous atrocities; and all too many others like it. Husband's conclusions are reiterated three years later by James Astill, in the article just cited. He reviews "the political cost to a country struggling to emerge from totalitarian military dictatorship, ruinous Islamism and long-running civil war" before the missile attack, which "overnight [plunged Khartoum] into the nightmare of impotent extremism it had been trying to escape." This "political cost" may have been even more harmful to Sudan than the destruction of its "fragile medical services," he concludes.

Astill quotes Dr. Idris Eltayeb, one of Sudan's handful of pharmacologists and chairman of the board of Al-Shifa: the crime, he says, is "just as much an act of terrorism as at the Twin Towers- the only difference is we know who did it. I feel very sad about the loss of life [in New York and Washington], but in terms of numbers, and the relative cost to a poor country, [the bombing in Sudan] was worse." Unfortunately, he may be right about "the loss of life in terms of numbers," even if we do not take into account the longer-term "political cost."

[ ... ]

One can scarcely try to estimate the toll of the Sudan bombing, even apart from the probable tens of thousands of immediate Sudanese victims. The complete toll is attributable to the single act of terror -at least, if we have the honesty to adopt the standards we properly apply to official enemies.​
 

vimothy

yurp
This must be one of the most disingenuous questions I've read on this forum; your selective amnesia is as impressive as that of crack'n'whack. Are we to assume that next you'll be telling us you're a holocaust denier, because your tone here, as with crackered's ravings, is equally dispicable ... ? [and no, I haven't confused you with sombody else, Hayek-loving vimothy].

[Sighs] Ok, I'll come straight out and say it then: there are no war crimes, there is no collusion. All I'm really trying to say is explain why you think there is, if you think that. It's not rocket science, mate.

hmlt why do you engage -however derisorily- with the likes of this nudnik cunt?

Yeah, that's a good question.

tht, I think you are actually the rudest and most obnoxious poster on this board.
 

vimothy

yurp
Arg, this conversation is going nowhere. But let's give it a try anyway.

Ha, I'm probably not helping, so I will try and post something on topic for a change. Apologies for not have read the responses yet, most of this has probably been covered.

My question is, regardless of whether the US actually will attack Iran or not, can anyone actually picture a situation in which a US attack on Iran will work out well? A situation:

- that does not just further inflame Muslim hatred of the US and feed into more terrorism
- that does not result in the deaths of 10s of thousands of innocent civilians
- in which the current Iranian gov't is overthrown and replaced with a more peaceful government that accurately represents the interests of the Iranian people (note: the IRANIAN people, not the interests of the US gov't)
- in which all of the justifications for the attack (nuclear, terrorism, humanitarianism, whatever) actually turn out to be TRUE

- Firstly I think it's fair to say that Muslim hatred for America has come clean loose from whatever moorings it had (if it ever had them) and floated off into the realm of fantasy and irrationalism. There are a variety of reasons for Muslim anti-western hatred, and most of them are to be found within the Muslim world and its historical development. There's probably nothing that America can do to change this.

- An attack would most probably not involve an occupation (at least, that's my reading) - it would be an Osirak type raid on Iran's dispursed nuclear technology, and as such would involve few civilian deaths.

- I'm not sure I can answer this without you explaining a little more what you mean when you say interests of the Iranians not the US administration: what are the interests of the Iranians and how are they different from the US administration? Are the Iranians incapable of self-determination?

- They are all true, aren't they? It's whether you believe that the US government gives a shit or is just using them as an excuse to bolster flagging US regional hegemony that matters.

because i really can't see it happening. not in a million years. in fact i don't see even ONE of the above points happening. and this is why i'm truly frightened of a US attack on Iran, whatever sketchy justifications the US has put forward so far are not worth it.

I don't think there will be anything beyond an anti-nuclear gazwa: no one has the stomach for another Iraq.
 

vimothy

yurp
Really, sparkler, is this the best you can do? Are you so congenitally precluded from undertaking any simple research for yourself on the topic, or would that be too ideologically inconvenient? The consequences of this act of US terrorism have been well documented, but to take one instance, and only one instance, of insightful commentary on the bombing, I think Mr Chomsky has considerably more to say than anything emanating from the corrosive hackland where you choose to reside.

Did someone say moral equivalence?

(Have you got a link to that essay, btw, hundredmilllionlifetimes?)
 

vimothy

yurp
I agree completely with this. We have the same debate over here, and most of my neo-liberal friends always bring up this argument. Usually, my response is that, in the grand scheme of things, the amount of the tax-payers’ money disappearing into the public service’s black hole is trifling in comparison with how much is spent in far more questionable sectors, the military being a good example.

Well, isn't that part of the reason why public services are so inefficient? Obviously it's got a lot more to do with pricing and equilibrium but when people wear the casual waste of national resources as a badge of (perhaps semi-) ideological pride, I think it definitely creates a culture where such waste is more acceptable.
 

tht

akstavrh
tht, I think you are actually the rudest and most obnoxious poster on this board

this is something that concerned me, as i tend to favour politesse and conciliation (srsly)

however your equivocations and commonsense paeans to political violence are noisesome in the extreme

there is no suggestion that america will be temperate in it's next adventures, all the leaks suggest they will try to attack as many infrastructural sites as they can find, not just underground nuclear plants

very many will perish
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
- Firstly I think it's fair to say that Muslim hatred for America has come clean loose from whatever moorings it had (if it ever had them) and floated off into the realm of fantasy and irrationalism. There are a variety of reasons for Muslim anti-western hatred, and most of them are to be found within the Muslim world and its historical development. There's probably nothing that America can do to change this.

do you realise who outlandish and offensive these statements are?
do you know any muslims?
why do you assume ALL members of a religion numbering many millions ALL think the same thing?
do you have an in depth understanding of the historical development of islam?
do you have any understanding of the US's role in the middle east in ther past 50 years?

your posts are just reconstructed gibberish garnered from the mouth of GB and US gvt propaghandists (or, in the case of the anti-BBC spiel, the daily mail)
 

vimothy

yurp
do you realise who outlandish and offensive these statements are?
do you know any muslims?
why do you assume ALL members of a religion numbering many millions ALL think the same thing?
do you have an in depth understanding of the historical development of islam?
do you have any understanding of the US's role in the middle east in ther past 50 years?

I don't agree that these statements are outlandish or offensive (unless it is outlandish or offensive to disagree with you and the "ruling dissensian hegemony" (ha)). Why is critique offensive matt b? If I were to have said, prior to the '90s Balkan conflict that serbian society was at an extremely retarded low point, and that serb nationalism was fed by irrational lunatic elements not by reasonable greivances, would you have been equally as offended? If you can say "muslims are not...", can't I say "muslims are..."? How can we talk at all if we cannot make generalisations?
 

vimothy

yurp
your posts are just reconstructed gibberish garnered from the mouth of GB and US gvt propaghandists (or, in the case of the anti-BBC spiel, the daily mail)

Yeah ...

I was actually thinking more of Bernard Lewis and Paul Berman, but never mind.
 
Top