War In Iran

[crackerjack]

Oh my god ...

MEMRI is brilliant though, I only discovered it yesterday.

Careful now. It's a Zionist conspiracy you know.

 

[hundredmillionlifetimes]

no-one is using it as a justification for disliking israel, but rather israeli policy.

your belief that because actions are not sanctioned officially, such behaviours are undertaken by some rogue-soldier element is simply childlike in its naivety- if that's the case the IDF training is woeful, or it has an unnaturally high proportion of criminally minded individuals in it.

Yes, and the institutionalized abuse by all of Israel's security forces is not only systematically racist, but is also routinely - and aggressively - sexist:

Five women -- Palestinian, American, Muslim, Christian, and Jewish -- tell stories of humiliation and harassment by Israeli border guards and airport security officials.

The Easiest Targets - Part I [7mins, youtube]

The Easiest Targets - Part II [5mins, youtube].

 

[...]

You're all very quiet right now.

 

[vimothy]

You're all very quiet right now.

What's going on?

 

[Mr. Tea]

What's going on?

Bored now. Adam Curtis is where it's at, daddio.

 

[noel emits]

Who's baiting who?

(Not in this thread - I mean Iran / UK)

 

[Mr. Tea]

Difficult to say. It's certainly an inflammatory move, but then, were the British sailors trespassing in Iranian waters or not? Obviously the MoD is going to say they weren't, but the sailors and the Iranians who seized them are the only people who know for sure, so it's one side's words against the other's.

 

[vimothy]

Who's baiting who?

(Not in this thread - I mean Iran / UK)

What? Are the British servicemen then baiting the Iranian government by being kidnapped?

 

[noel emits]

What? Are the British servicemen then baiting the Iranian government by being kidnapped?

No, but like Mr. Tea said we don't know whether they were in the wrong part of the sea or not.

Detaining these people is going to make Iran look more villainous to a lot of people in the West. Who's interest that is really in I cannot say.

 

[Mr. Tea]

What? Are the British servicemen then baiting the Iranian government by being kidnapped?

Oh come on - the Iranians are claiming the British sailors were in Iranian waters illegally. It seems impossible to establish at the moment whether this is true, but as an alleged reason for taking them hostage, I expect it's perfactly valid under international law. Do you think the Royal Navy would take no action if an Iranian warship steamed up the English Channel?

 

[crackerjack]

No, but like Mr. Tea said we don't know whether they were in the wrong part of the sea or not.

Detaining these people is going to make Iran look more villainous to a lot of people in the West. Who's interest that is really in I cannot say.

Regardless of where exactly the British boats were the arrest was a deliberate and calculated provocation (which makes me very doubtful that they had strayed). If they were in Iranian waters they should have been told, and given the opportunity to get out.

It's pretty obvious they are a bargaining chip to be used against the Americans for capturing Iranians in Iraq a few weeks back.

 

[vimothy]

No, but like Mr. Tea said we don't know whether they were in the wrong part of the sea or not.

Detaining these people is going to make Iran look more villainous to a lot of people in the West. Who's interest that is really in I cannot say.

Honestly, can Iran really do no wrong? Even when they have kidnapped a group of sailors, it's still a (American? British? Martian?) conspiracy to make the Iranians look bad.

It's really not got anything to do with whether or not they were in the wrong bit of sea. Who's interest, I ask you... sheesh...

 

[vimothy]

Oh come on - the Iranians are claiming the British sailors were in Iranian waters illegally. It seems impossible to establish at the moment whether this is true, but as an alleged reason for taking them hostage, I expect it's perfactly valid under international law.

Are you sure that international law sanctions the kidnapping of soldiers who are suspected of tresspassing on Iranian national waters?

 

[crackerjack]

Oh come on - the Iranians are claiming the British sailors were in Iranian waters illegally. It seems impossible to establish at the moment whether this is true, but as an alleged reason for taking them hostage, I expect it's perfactly valid under international law.

It might - at a stretch - be legal, but it's certainly neither necessary nor valid.

 

[noel emits]

Why is it kidnapping and not detaining?

So you guys think Iran is deliberately provoking the west? And giving the UK/US public possible good reason to support action against Iran? How does that make sense?

 

[Mr. Tea]

Are you sure that international law sanctions the kidnapping of soldiers who are suspected of tresspassing on Iranian national waters?

No I'm not sure, which is why I said "I expect...". In any case, this move is said by some to have been in retaliation for the recent detaining of Iranian nationals in Iraq by US forces, but I don't see you jumpinng up and down at the injustice of that.

In reply to your cry of 'conspiracy!' at Noel, it seems to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong on this, Noel) that he was simply saying Iran is making itself look bad, and that the move is likely to backfire on them in the long run.

I agree with the general concensus that the seisure was a Bad Thing, from a moral point of view, and a Bad Idea, from the POV of Iran's national interest. I'm just saying that if the sailors were trespassing, it seems likely to me that Iran is at least legally within its rights to detain them. I certainly hope they get released soon.

 

[crackerjack]

Detaining these people is going to make Iran look more villainous to a lot of people in the West. Who's interest that is really in I cannot say.

Ahmadinejad's. Obviously.

IF Iran were the innocent party here and IF they were in the least concerned about not looking villainous to the West, they would've immediately released them, perhaps with a map of the Sahtt-al-Arab's territorial borders. This is provocation, pure & simple.

 

[vimothy]

Why is it kidnapping and not detaining?

So you guys think Iran is deliberately provoking the west? And giving the UK/US public possible good reason to support action against Iran? How does that make sense?

You're assuming that you share goals with the Iranian theocracy.

 

[vimothy]

Ahmadinejad's. Obviously.

IF Iran were the innocent party here and IF they were in the least concerned about not looking villainous to the West, they would've immediately released them, perhaps with a map of the Sahtt-al-Arab's territorial borders. This is provocation, pure & simple.

Agreed

 

[noel emits]

Ahmadinejad's. Obviously.

IF Iran were the innocent party here and IF they were in the least concerned about not looking villainous to the West, they would've immediately released them, perhaps with a map of the Sahtt-al-Arab's territorial borders. This is provocation, pure & simple.

If that is the case they should be concerned. Crazy fuckers stirring up a hornets nest that's already got it in for them.

I'm not calling conspiracy at all. But it has been known for reasons to go to war to have been engineered in the public mind.