soundslike1981
Well-known member
So, any opinions on how "I Want You" by Elvis Costello fits into all this?
Vocal Pop Music -- Do you listen to lyrics?
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nomadologist
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See this one is interesting to me because it includes the classic male jealousy thrown in with the unrequited desire. I just don't get jealous like that, and it's kind of fascinating to me that anyone does.
It's also pretty intense, this need he's feeling. Personally I wouldn't waste my time on someone who's taken, or at least, I'd feel fully attracted to them but not feel a need to fully realize it. Sometimes it's hotter to want someone, not be able to have them, know it, and understand that it's ok. That's what sexuality is, always wanting. It's fun to have sexual desire outside the bounds of any arrangements we place on it--that's what makes a relationship sexy, too, the fact that you could be with other people, want to be, and choose not to...Why does he want to consummate it if comsummating the passion would kill it? This is the essential problem at the core of traditional male sexuality, from what I've observed--when you make sex about possessing an object, the very act of sex becomes a sort of requiem to desire. Sad. Not hot.
Don't know how it fits into indie rock and sexuality except I don't much like Elvis Costello's whole shtick...
It's also pretty intense, this need he's feeling. Personally I wouldn't waste my time on someone who's taken, or at least, I'd feel fully attracted to them but not feel a need to fully realize it. Sometimes it's hotter to want someone, not be able to have them, know it, and understand that it's ok. That's what sexuality is, always wanting. It's fun to have sexual desire outside the bounds of any arrangements we place on it--that's what makes a relationship sexy, too, the fact that you could be with other people, want to be, and choose not to...Why does he want to consummate it if comsummating the passion would kill it? This is the essential problem at the core of traditional male sexuality, from what I've observed--when you make sex about possessing an object, the very act of sex becomes a sort of requiem to desire. Sad. Not hot.
Don't know how it fits into indie rock and sexuality except I don't much like Elvis Costello's whole shtick...
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swears
preppy-kei
Cex's early instrumental stuff showed a lot of promise, one of the few US electronica acts toying with RnB production influences. Then, of course he made that goddawful rap album and that one with all the whiny singing and acoustic guitars on it...I mean WHY? There's already a million dickheads doing that shit, stick to what you're good at.
soundslike1981
Well-known member
Well, if I remember correctly, the "whiny singing and acoustic guitars" was his honest, actual background--he was already established as some boring-as-no-fuck indie rock act, and then decided he'd like to be Prince for a while (just as my housemates' fave Of Montreal is currently doing, combined with David Bowie). . . I feel bad becaue it sounds a little damned if you do, damned if you don't re: white boys and these two routes. . . but either rarely feels anything but put on, unconvincing. But does that make it anti-popist to slag indie rock? [head spins]
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nomadologist
Guest
momus' "closer to you" from the poison boyfriend (OOPS, not girlfriend, freudian slip) might pose a challenge to the cheap indie plea to get laid idea of mine...
who is cex? heard that name a million times but never the music
who is cex? heard that name a million times but never the music
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soundslike1981
Well-known member
That song always struck me as one of the more honest expressions of male amourous desire/pain/loss--partly because of the lyrics, but largely because of his conviction in expressing them--the way he reuses the monosylabic, three-word phrase and yet illuminates all its possible connotations by context and the sound of his voice. Clearly he's exploring all of the contridictions in his desire, his "classic male" jealousy, the maleness of it all, the strange eternal virgin/whore double standard placed on women by men, the weird way in which women can be immature assholes and not be called on it. But then, I probably associate the song with a protracted period of infidelity and loss in my life, so again, projecting?
Interesting way of putting it. And I'm afraid I've experienced it in this way, in younger years. But it also seems there's a path of mutual desire that embraces the carnal energy of sexuality, that allows for "possession" without objectification--and it's in the light of such possible sharing that I read/hear "I Want You"--that sort of pain doesn't come from the dissapointment of losing (or losing interest in) an "object".
I've never really been aware what people mean re: Elvis Costello's schtick, because I was just a random 14 year old who found 'Mighty Like a Rose' in a remainders bin, so obviously I came into him all backwards. . .
soundslike1981
Well-known member
Chubby indie white boy trying to one-up prince, coopt a little Easy-E. . . utterly boring and embarrasing.
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nomadologist
Guest
Yeah, I suppose that as a female you're constantly expecting that you'll probably be cheated on if you're not vigilant, whereas men have the "virgin" archetype and maybe it's a huge shock to the system if they find out a girlfriend is cheating, or has moved on to someone new who they don't like. Very often I think women rebound fast just because they know it drives men crazy because they're so possessive. I couldn't give two shits who my ex-boyfriends are sleeping with: good luck with that, girls.
There's a middle ground with possession--I always feel jealous if I feel like I'm not "good enough" or something like that. Women are raised (where I come from) to feel like you can never be enough for a man, so you end up feeling like it's your responsibility to "keep" someone in a relationship. I have no interest in behaving like that. Boring.
Elvis Costello's songs just seem a little boring to me, and since I don't listen to lyrics normally, those don't redeem him for me...
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nomadologist
Guest
Maybe it has something to do with commercialism, too, like the rapper/actor or diva/actress phenomenon: like if your brand is successful, you should spread it out as far and wide as possible just to squeeze every last penny out of it...
soundslike1981
Well-known member
True--though in Cex's case, it seems less like eclecticism and more like oportunism (as in, "these teenage indie white girls probably haven't heard Prince, so it might seem novel to them and I'll get some--and those in on the joke can have a good laugh).
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nomadologist
Guest
Maybe the Elvis Costello is also a good example of how sexism or misogyny seeps into music that's made by generally good, decent, sensitive guys who aren't total jerks. Our sexuality is structured for us in such a way that we can't help having these feelings even if we know they're stupid. This is how I listen to a lot of pop music. Roseanne Cash type of country brings this out in the open a lot, I'd say...
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nomadologist
Guest
guh if it's that bad I'm steering clear...
soundslike1981
Well-known member
Well, whether it excuses it or not, Costello seems quite knowing about these ambiguities and gender-traps in his often angry, bitter jabs. Which seems to be for him the best thing he can maintain, barring the ability to transcend the gender roles and physical sexual male-female complications utterly. So it seems honest to me, and not the sort of "I've admitted my fault, so now leave me be to keep faulting" me-era way.
Funny I'd end up extolling the virtues of E.C., as he's one of the very small handful of pop lyricists who get me to pay attention (though, like I think I said, a lot of the appeal continues to be his entrancing ability to use words in metrical, sung context that most of us can barely pull off in essay writing. . . nerdy, I know.) And gender-wise, he's amost seem to be the opposite of Joni Mitchell, my other noticed lyricist---but I actually think they're both grappling with some of the same ambiguities of gender and sexuality, from not that different perspectives, really. Of course, it's nothing I've ever though about in an organised way. . .
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swears
preppy-kei
Check out his album Oops, I did it again. Ignore the rest. Not sure what you'd make of the sleeve photos of him murdering a girl, though. (She must have been paid, IDM nerds don't know any girls.)
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nomadologist
Guest
Nah, I'll admit that the more I listen to hip-hop (exclusively) for weeks at a time, the more sensitive I am to lyrics in rock/electronic/etc. I've been getting more into lyricism lately than I ever was, so this thread coming up was fortuitous...
soundslike1981
Well-known member
Hmm. Maybe it'll inspire me to have a "lyrics week" or something, for a change. As I started this thread because I've moved so far away from lyrics. . .
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nomadologist
Guest
Hehe, although I may be onto lyrics just because I've mined everything I like to death and that's what's floating to the top, the only thing I hadn't paid much attention to yet...
Yeah dude, 'sexism so long as there's some panache,' that sounds brilliant, real recipe there.
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