Sarko Wins

Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
vimothy said:
Have read several times on online Muslim forums that democracy and Islam are incompatible.
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I'm sure the majority of Muslims in Europe don't really think that, but naturally it's the extremists who are the most vocal about their beliefs. They often tend to be the ones in power (within their own communities - indeed, the ones most keen on presenting the face of a unified 'community') so as I said above moderate Muslims are quite liable to being bullied into conforming to an extremist line, or face being labelled as apostates, infidels, stooges of the corrupt West or whatever.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
crackerjack said:
You should stop reading MPACUK;)

The French turnout was massive - hardly compatible with the biggest 'minority' all boycotting the poll.
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I wasn't actually suggesting that Muslims don't participate in elections. I have no idea of the data for Muslim involvement in the French elections.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
And of course, being a religion with no central authority, rulings or fatwas from the ulema (scholars) are important.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
vimothy said:
I wasn't actually suggesting that Muslims don't participate in elections. I have no idea of the data for Muslim involvement in the French elections.
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That's precisely my point - neither does anyone else!

Edit: gosh... "1. This forum requires that you wait 30 seconds between posts. Please try again in 4 seconds."
 
IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
Think that France has huge problems with racism, and with chronic growth and stifling labour laws.
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But still better health service, schools, public transport etc than the UK. I don't think that it's quite this black and white, UK great/France fucked situation that we constantly hear.
I'm not that optimistic about Sarkozy to be honest. I don't really get why everyone says it's a change, the same party is in power and the new leader has been prominent in it for years.
 
Guybrush

Guybrush

Dittohead
vimothy said:
Good article on Chirac:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy.../05/07/AR2007050701239.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
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I respect Applebaum a lot, but this column is full of grandiloquent indignation. Her cheap shots at these comments in particular:

Ponder closely, for example, what Chirac has had to say on Africa, where his country has enormous influence, in many places far outweighing ours: During a visit to the Ivory Coast, Chirac once called "multi-partyism" a "kind of luxury," which his host, president-for-life Félix Houphouet-Boigny, clearly could not afford. During a visit to Tunisia, he proclaimed that since "the most important human rights are the rights to be fed, to have health, to be educated and to be housed," Tunisia's human rights record is "very advanced" -- never mind the police who beat up dissidents. "Africa is not ready for democracy," he told a group of African leaders in the early 1990s.
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Does anyone really disagree with him, at least tacitly?
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Saying "you need certain social and economic infrastructures to be in place before it's feasible to practise democracy" sounds quite reasonable - I mean, look at Iraq and Afghanistan, FFS - and it's not the same thing as saying "Africans are too primitive and politically immature to cope with democracy", which is almost certainly not what he meant.
 
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crackerjack

Well-known member
IdleRich said:
But still better health service, schools, public transport etc than the UK. I don't think that it's quite this black and white, UK great/France fucked situation that we constantly hear.
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Exactly. I'm not averse to a spot of free market discipline and all that, just the notion that it's win-win every time. There are areas, huge areas (and Idle Rich has just named three of them), where I'd take an inefficient state monopoly providing a decent service over a lean, mean money-making machine every time.
 
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crackerjack

Well-known member
vimothy said:
What if you could pick a much better, more efficient market economy provided service?
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Obviously i'd take it. That's like asking me if i'd sooner have a tenner than a fiver.

What i reject is the economic liberal ideology that the private sector is always more efficient, always better.

Exhibit A: British railways
Exhibit B: British water companies
Exhibit C: British gas
 
swears

swears

preppy-kei
I've always been a bit confused to why France has a President and a Prime Minister.
How do their resposibilities differ? What if they have drastically differrent political beliefs?
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
IdleRich said:
But still better health service, schools, public transport etc than the UK. I don't think that it's quite this black and white, UK great/France fucked situation that we constantly hear.
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I'm not sure if anyone is saying that. The French economy has problems though - it's not called the "sick man of Europe" for nothing.

I'm not that optimistic about Sarkozy to be honest. I don't really get why everyone says it's a change, the same party is in power and the new leader has been prominent in it for years.
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He's gone out of his way to break with Chirac, he has a different programme. But of course, it remains to be seen how much difference it will make, or whether the French will accept the changes he wants to bring in.
 
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crackerjack

Well-known member
I've always been a bit confused to why France has a President and a Prime Minister.
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Because they don't have a queen. :)

Most (all?) republics have a head of state; they just differ in the extent to which the role is symbolic.

What if they have drastically differrent political beliefs?
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This happens quite often. They muddle through, same as in the US when Congress is controlled by the non-presidential party.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
crackerjack said:
Obviously i'd take it. That's like asking me if i'd sooner have a tenner than a fiver.

What i reject is the economic liberal ideology that the private sector is always more efficient, always better.

Exhibit A: British railways
Exhibit B: British water companies
Exhibit C: British gas
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Of course it is - and equally, why would anyone want a hideous mess of an inefficient industry? I don't think any free marketers are arguing for that.

The free market is necessarily more efficient because that's its nature. Nationalised British industries like the railways are in a mess because of ridiculous bureaucracy - the exact opposite of good liberal economics.
 
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