Dubstep

[Sick Boy]

It's also hilarious how the "Welcome Back" thread descends into spiteful rabble in about 4 pages. It goes to show how the whole idea was pretty much empty to begin with. Sapphic Beats is pretty much on the money saying that either it's a community or it isn't. I work, live and grew up with people who were arseholes simply because, "arsehole" being a purely subjective term, they have the right to exist much in the same way I do.

You can't force a utopia without it smacking of aristocracy. Argument and disagreement is the keystone to any community. Without dialectic you are in effect pushing the scene towards a greater likelihood of hegemony and stagnation since you are suppressing particular viewpoints or behaviours with the "what one hand giveth, the other can taketh away" argument.

I don't particularly care, because I don't really use the forum, but the way I see it, if the mods and admin wanted to take a day off, got bored of it, thought it was a pain in the arse, got sick of paying for it, it would be entirely their right to close it - and if they were considerate perhaps offer the duties of administration to somebody else. But those weren't their reasons.

Teaching an entire community of people a lesson? Nah.

 

[mms]

I'm still lurking I guess... I like reading of a good conversation if not for informational then pure entertainment value and this place kind of reminds me of the In/Flux mail list way back in the day, so should be good...

sure i'm not really having a go at anyone even if it seems i am, i'm more or less a bit dissapointed.

In all seriousness, i think one of the problems thats happened with dubstep is that the audience has quite often found so many ways to look back, rather than trust in dubstep's simple formula, or openly coopting and working with emerging forms in other music, it's as if the weight of dance music's history has made it collapse in on itself, the back in the day choices, are too much,.
It's as if dubstep isn't real , it hasn't really answered everyone's utopian prayers, the big giveaway being there is so much dread in it, it's a simple formula which alot of people have mirrored their desires onto, tried to reassemble what really moves them into dubsteps template, and this has essentially made all but the most fwd looking ideas fall apart into opposition and dullness.

it's as if the word dubstep has been taken too literally, it's almost ghost music, something like the stone tapes, carrying the sound of old times gone and reproducing in the dynamics of a simplified proscribed technical form, both musically and technically.

 

[urbanite]

I'm a bit disappointed myself...

The thing is I got really excited by dubstep as a movement because I saw it very much like a new kind of hip-hop where originality and pushing the envelope are the main objectives, it seemed to me to be the old slogan reborn just as hip-hop was losing steam for me for some reason. But very early on there were these people especially in the nascent Russian scene who would debate the fact that certain tunes or microstyles are or not dubstep... I guess what we are seeing is just on a much bigger scale a confusion about what is dubstep in the end. People who are used to genre labels defining a certain style of sound can't think of it as a movement. I think most people's conceptions are just too different about what it really is. What defines it? Since the conceptions are so different so are the expectations.

And in my attempt to understand the history of the sound and the different styles, I'm pretty much confused now as well.

There is also the larger question of what exactly makes a tune forward thinking or pushing the envelope with all this technological innovation and everyone and their mom being a dj and a producer and the sonic palette pretty much as explored and known as it can be? But this one is just something else that's on my mind lately.

I'm still finding new good releases though and stuff I genuinely like even if it's sometimes not straight dancefloor material or some of the other DJs will probably tell me I'm straying from dubstep. Acceptance and fitting in is something I still strive for unconciously I guess...

Anyways, I'm rambling on as usual... the main point is I don't think the DSF's way of handling the shifting conceptions and expectations was the right way about it and as such I was a lurker on the forum before and so it will probably remain. I'm not sure if I'm being extremely cynical, but I will probably make use of DSF for promotion and such... to my mind it's more about realpolitik and being pragmatic enough to recognise that in the end I'm more likely to reach a lot more people there than for example here on dissensus.

 

[Ory]

the sonic palette pretty much as explored and known as it can be

it's not.

 

[mms]

it's not.

this is true, and this is exactly what i'm saying, there shouldn't even be a sonic pallete as that's perscribing older genre rules and memes onto dubstep, which is what alot ofproducers have done.

 

[Shonx]

When genres start out, they're usually created by people dissatisfied with the scene they're involved in and wanting to create something new. When they get bigger, they then get polluted with unimaginative people that want to sound like the big names, big names who have also stopped seeming so special in a sea of poor imitations.

To be honest, this isn't a bad thing. Disliking the way a genre's heading can often lead to people fucking it off entirely and making something all their own. I do favour the approach of being more individualistic about making music rather than trying to fit into the group mentality, especially when the group has gone from being vaguely like-minded to having virtually nothing in common.

 

[sapphic_beats]

lol.

im not returning. this place is far more interesting.

i hope that's ok with you.

yeah this place is infinitely more interesting, although i still seem to just sit back and lurk because the writing is super fascinating to read.

 

[Grievous Angel]

i still seem to just sit back and lurk because the writing is super fascinating to read.

Yeah but it was much better in the old days



(it wasn't)

 

[mms]

When genres start out, they're usually created by people dissatisfied with the scene they're involved in and wanting to create something new. When they get bigger, they then get polluted with unimaginative people that want to sound like the big names, big names who have also stopped seeming so special in a sea of poor imitations.

To be honest, this isn't a bad thing. Disliking the way a genre's heading can often lead to people fucking it off entirely and making something all their own. I do favour the approach of being more individualistic about making music rather than trying to fit into the group mentality, especially when the group has gone from being vaguely like-minded to having virtually nothing in common.

there' s always a fair amount of rubbish being made and there always has, percentage wise, release to release it's probably about the same.
I don't want people to fuck dubstep off, i'd rather they'd just get more imaginative and stop leaning on stuff that's already happened to make music.
The balance between populisim and auteurism is a fine one though.

You shouldn't give people what you think they want if you're a dj though, you should give em what you want them to listen to, that's a very very simple thing that people weirdly seem to forget alot.

 

[gremino]

Acceptance and fitting in is something I still strive for unconciously I guess...

I think nobody can't completely escape from that. But it's good to make occasional questions for yourself "Am I making this because I like it so much or why...".

I really don't feel that I belong to Finnish dubstep scene, I feel having only a little common with people there. Just a moment ago when I decided to start using a local dubstep forum just for promotion, and to do just my own thing, everything in music started to go better. Now I can make music in no context (except club/home listening), and it feels much more enjoyable. Just letting production flow freely.

I think being in a scene can be such a barrier.

 

[Slothrop]

Anyways, I'm rambling on as usual... the main point is I don't think the DSF's way of handling the shifting conceptions and expectations was the right way about it and as such I was a lurker on the forum before and so it will probably remain.

What is the DSF's way of handling the shifting conceptions and expectations? It's always seemed to have a very open ended attitude, not least because it's a forum and not a single voice, so it only takes a few people getting excited about something to get a thread on it.

And the 'working definition' that gets used there seems to be pretty close to Kode 9's "140BPM with bass" - the idea of what dubstep is that people get from DSF is vastly broader (and more interesting) than they idea that a lot of noobs seem to appear with ie 70bpm with an aggro wobble sound and a comedy / horror sample.

 

[Shonx]

I don't want people to fuck dubstep off, i'd rather they'd just get more imaginative and stop leaning on stuff that's already happened to make music.

Well you could take the stuff you like and just take it somewhere else. I dunno, just found that people trying to do what they think will fit within a genre doesn't generally add anything innovative cause the goalposts are already fixed. By fucking it off, I just meant don't support the shit, but then as there's usually at least some shit on most bills, it's difficult not to.

 

[urbanite]

it's not.

In that particular passage I meant something about music as a whole, including all the genres and such. I mean as far as instrumentation and composition go, pretty much all the possible permutations and sounds have already been invented. Clearly that didn't stop the classical or the modern composers, but as it stands today I feel like music has become more about recombining different people's ideas rather than really being able to come up with something that no one ever did before.

The chances are you will be using the standard western scales and composition rules in your work (because that's what most music production tools are suited to), but even if you break the ranks you will probably still be doing something someone has had the idea to do beforehand, or you're in the insane sound design area, which often just becomes incomprehensible.

Maybe, I just lack imagination.

These ideas are more about me trying to get to grips with the postmodernist philosophy about arts, which at one moment seem to explain a lot of the dynamics, but then at certain points put me in logical traps.

Usually it ends up being better to go and write some music than to think about it too hard

 

[urbanite]

What is the DSF's way of handling the shifting conceptions and expectations? It's always seemed to have a very open ended attitude, not least because it's a forum and not a single voice, so it only takes a few people getting excited about something to get a thread on it.

And the 'working definition' that gets used there seems to be pretty close to Kode 9's "140BPM with bass" - the idea of what dubstep is that people get from DSF is vastly broader (and more interesting) than they idea that a lot of noobs seem to appear with ie 70bpm with an aggro wobble sound and a comedy / horror sample.

The way they dealt with it was to switch off the board for 3 days and hope that all the people who don't like or understand the working conception of "140BPM with bass" either go away or suck it up and accept it. Then again it's an entirely pointless exercise trying to tell them what to do with the forum. It's jut I think forcing someone to change their mind or conception by using some sort of force is more likely to produce counterproductive results.

 

[datura]

The way they dealt with it was to switch off the board for 3 days and hope that all the people who don't like or understand the working conception of "140BPM with bass" either go away or suck it up and accept it. Then again it's an entirely pointless exercise trying to tell them what to do with the forum. It's jut I think forcing someone to change their mind or conception by using some sort of force is more likely to produce counterproductive results.

I don't think it was switched off for any attempt to change people's perceptions of the music, more the way that they viewed and used the forum. As you can see in the, frankly rather embarrasing, welcome back thread, there is a lot of negativity against those that run the site.

 

[urbanite]

I don't think it was switched off for any attempt to change people's perceptions of the music, more the way that they viewed and used the forum. As you can see in the, frankly rather embarrasing, welcome back thread, there is a lot of negativity against those that run the site.

Fair enough... I guess I got the wrong idea from all the threads discussing the issue... not that there is much of one by now... Then again on a forum of a certain size there will always be those who do not value or are negative about the people running it and having a little 3 day reminder of how precious this place is to everyone every year is really going to be a bit much IMHO.

 

[Slothrop]

The way they dealt with it was to switch off the board for 3 days and hope that all the people who don't like or understand the working conception of "140BPM with bass" either go away or suck it up and accept it. Then again it's an entirely pointless exercise trying to tell them what to do with the forum. It's jut I think forcing someone to change their mind or conception by using some sort of force is more likely to produce counterproductive results.

I don't agree with everything the DSF moderating people do (to put it mildly) and I don't really see what shutting it down for three days acheived. And a lot of the talk there isn't exactly penetrating psycho-social critique.

But to some extent it's a board where noobs go because they've got the Rusko Fabric CD and want to know what this dubstep thing is all about (and get a bunch of Mala freaks telling them to listen to speed garage and Hyperdub), and where everyone else goes because they want to find out what's on in London this weekend and skim the main board in case anything interesting is going on and where some people go to chat breeze because it's another place on the internet to chat breeze, and maybe share some enthusiasm about music. It's another music messageboard, and it's maybe more like a better version of Dogs On Acid than a shit version of Dissensus...

 

[SysEx]

But to some extent it's a board where noobs go because they've got the Rusko Fabric CD and want to know what this dubstep thing is all about (and get a bunch of Mala freaks telling them to listen to speed garage and Hyperdub), and where everyone else goes because they want to find out what's on in London this weekend and skim the main board in case anything interesting is going on and where some people go to chat breeze because it's another place on the internet to chat breeze, and maybe share some enthusiasm about music. It's another music messageboard, and it's maybe more like a better version of Dogs On Acid than a shit version of Dissensus...

I could not say it better. I joined both this board and the dsf at around the same time. I come here mostly for the serious music chat. I really value what this forum has to offer for opinions. Ya'll too smart for your own good.

 

[subframe]

<--- dsf member #21

I hadn't been over there for ages when they shut it down. I thought it was hilarious and brilliant. I suppose 3 days was just the right amount of time, although I personally would have held out a bit longer.

 

[Shonx]

I think the breeze chatting at DOA is often superior, and the production forum's infinitely better. Pity I don't give a shit about most contemporary dnb either.