"Chav - the Musical"

[mistersloane]

forgive me for being a snob but I have good reason to be.

What's the reason? That you're a tard?

 

[gek-opel]

Sort of but not really. If you give someone a thirty second start on me in a mile run, then I could still beat them if I was much fitter and stronger and faster, but I wouldn't consider it a failing on my part if I didn't beat them.


Have you ever considered joining a high school debating society?

Of course that leaves available the argument for absolute determinism, even those who break out of the macro conditions of poverty and anti-education mire were merely blessed to have a micro-circumstance peculiar to them which enabled such a breaking out to occur as readily as it would to those gifted extraordinary macro-advantageous social conditions.

Perhaps the presumption of some will that can smash against its circumstance ignores the potential that this will may be as determined in its own way (but merely more proximately to the individual) as the easy success of the wealthy private school student. Perhaps if we pay close enough attention all such successes are determined?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

I don't think that the 'chav' figure is meant to represent the working-classes on the whole, just its more disfunctional members (or those who indulge in stereotypically trivial activities - chavs drive their customised cars; toffs ride their nags). I don't think that most working-class people would take the caricature to apply to them. In fact, 'chav' is in regular use by working-class people to mock other working-class people.

 

[swears]

In fact, 'chav' is in regular use by working-class people to mock other working-class people.

It depends. I've heard middle class people use it to describe poor people in general. The adjective "chavvy" has come into use a lot as well, recently. I think there could definitely be more mockery of some of the stupid shit middle class trendies wear.

 

[DRMHCP]

I don't think that the 'chav' figure is meant to represent the working-classes on the whole, just its more disfunctional members (or those who indulge in stereotypically trivial activities - chavs drive their customised cars; toffs ride their nags). I don't think that most working-class people would take the caricature to apply to them. In fact, 'chav' is in regular use by working-class people to mock other working-class people.

but unfortunately the jokes on them as just spending time in university/places where "non-poor" people congregate (as well as also just going on the Ch*v Sc*m site) will show you that it is often used to ctiticise anyone from a "working class" background
To hear any working class person use it (and they probably learnt about it in The Sun or The Mail) is akin to a person from a minority ethnic background criticising others of their own minority to try to gain some kind of favour from the dominant racial grouping. Uncle Tom-ism i think it's known as.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

To hear any working class person use it (and they probably learnt about it in The Sun or The Mail) is akin to a person from a minority ethnic background criticising others of their own minority to try to gain some kind of favour from the dominant racial grouping. Uncle Tom-ism i think it's known as.

Hmm possibly - however, my point came from the experience of teaching in an almost 100% working class school. The kids who were called 'chavs' by others were so named because of orange tans/naff jewellery etc. One thing's for sure: the students weren't trying to curry favour with me.

I still wonder how many working class kids actually care about middle/upper class people calling them chavs (how many of 'us' do so to their faces?). I don't remember any student complaining about the stereotype over the whole year (especially as they saw me as the archetypal member of the middle-class) - the hot 'social interaction' topic was always race.

In fact, the main characteristic of 90% of the kids there was their ability not to give a walnut whip about what anybody thought of them.

 

[Electric Angel]

What's the reason? That you're a tard?

Yes that must be it.

 

[IdleRich]

"Of course that leaves available the argument for absolute determinism, even those who break out of the macro conditions of poverty and anti-education mire were merely blessed to have a micro-circumstance peculiar to them which enabled such a breaking out to occur as readily as it would to those gifted extraordinary macro-advantageous social conditions.
Perhaps the presumption of some will that can smash against its circumstance ignores the potential that this will may be as determined in its own way (but merely more proximately to the individual) as the easy success of the wealthy private school student. Perhaps if we pay close enough attention all such successes are determined?"

Indeed, perhaps (and perhaps not). But I think that most people believe that there is some value in stripping back the determinism as near to the individual as possible. It may not be fair that x is more intelligent than y but people have less of a problem with that than the unfairness of x going to a better school than y and I think rightly so.

 

[swears]

To hear any working class person use it (and they probably learnt about it in The Sun or The Mail) is akin to a person from a minority ethnic background criticising others of their own minority to try to gain some kind of favour from the dominant racial grouping. Uncle Tom-ism i think it's known as.

To be honest, I think a far larger threat to the ruling classes would be working class people aspiring to better education, better public services, better career prospects, as in the pre-Thatcher 70s.
To think of a "chav" as a typical working class person, or somebody who is self-confident and proud of their working class roots is a fallacy, chavs are a product of the many ways Britain has failed large sections of it's population.

 

[Sick Boy]

Phrases like "wannabe gangster" come up a lot - I think many people view it as a bad imitation of hip hop culture. For instance, part of the point of Ali G as a character isn't that he's a white guy sending up black gangstas, he's a white guy sending up white kids from the suburbs who pretend they're black kids from the Bronx...

I always thought that Ali G's real genius was in that he was sending up everybody he interviewed by exposing that they actually believed the ridiculous characterization of whichever stereotypes he was portraying.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I always thought that Ali G's real genius was in that he was sending up everybody he interviewed by exposing that they actually believed the ridiculous characterization of whichever stereotypes he was portraying.

Yeah, the main subject of his pisstakery was the establishment worthies who took him so seriously as da voice of da yoof - but on the other hand, his character isn't too much of an exaggeration of the self-styled gangstas found in a lot of provincial English towns.

 

[gek-opel]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/6944534.stm

"School condemns chav-hunt spoof" Public Skoolies: Beyond parody...

"The film, which showed teenagers wearing shell suits being chased by classmates dressed as aristocrats, was partly filmed on the school grounds. Officials have described the spoof as "deeply offensive" and said it did not reflect the ethos at the school. "

ORLY?


Re: Determinism and class-- so the argument rests not at all on some idea of individual will (and hence we perhaps should not even talk of individual's free choosing of success)--- but rather in statistical liklihood based on background. How does moving the deterministic forces closer to the skin of the individual themselves actually alter anything? We still cannot claim that they earned their success or failure, all we can do is point to the statistical likelihood of it occurring given various facets of their background. But if we look closely enough, it might be utterly predictable all along.

 

[DRMHCP]

Yeah, the main subject of his pisstakery was the establishment worthies who took him so seriously as da voice of da yoof - but on the other hand, his character isn't too much of an exaggeration of the self-styled gangstas found in a lot of provincial English towns.

If I remember just about the only one who had him sussed and didnt fall for it was Tony Benn.
Also I don't think he was necessarily supposed to be white (just because Sacha Baron Cohen was) wasnt his ethnic background purposely ambiguous? ie he could have been white/mixed race/Asian. Whatever the case surely he was just a skit on the wannabe gangster type...

 

[Mr. Tea]

surely he was just a skit on the wannabe gangster type...

Oh sure, I mean he's called 'Ali' which is a pretty common Arabic name, plus with his naturally Semetic looks he could easily pass for being middle-eastern. I think in one episode he even mentions his "uncle Jamal", or something like that. So yeah, I suppose he's satirising British kids of any background who affect to talk like yardies or Crips (and, even more so, white establishment figures falling over themselves to take him seriously to prove their right-on credentials).

I remember the time his "Is it because I is black?" line was met with an earnest "Not at all!".

 

[elgato]

Re: Determinism and class-- so the argument rests not at all on some idea of individual will (and hence we perhaps should not even talk of individual's free choosing of success)--- but rather in statistical liklihood based on background. How does moving the deterministic forces closer to the skin of the individual themselves actually alter anything? We still cannot claim that they earned their success or failure, all we can do is point to the statistical likelihood of it occurring given various facets of their background. But if we look closely enough, it might be utterly predictable all along.

There is no merit in it in the 'moral' question, but in terms of formulating public policy, or opinions on it, it must be an advantage to examine the factors involved in as precise a detail as possible i think. I dont think i fully understand what is meant by 'moving the determinism closer to the skin of the individual' though... if it feeds and propagates a tendency to judge the unsuccessful as worthy of their position then I would find it hard to support such a process

But on a general note, it amazes me how rarely one comes across people who are willing to believe that no-one really 'deserves' anything any more than anyone else.

But there is a question in that by acknowledging the lack of free will, we alter a key environmental factor which defines behaviour, most likely for the worse (in terms of motivation and empowerment). So ultimately, practically, is it better to propagate the fallacy that we can make of our lives what we choose? At the expense of the self-respect of those less fortunate? I dont think it can really...

 

[gek-opel]

There is no merit in it in the 'moral' question, but in terms of formulating public policy, or opinions on it, it must be an advantage to examine the factors involved in as precise a detail as possible i think. I dont think i fully understand what is meant by 'moving the determinism closer to the skin of the individual' though... if it feeds and propagates a tendency to judge the unsuccessful as worthy of their position then I would find it hard to support such a process

But on a general note, it amazes me how rarely one comes across people who are willing to believe that no-one really 'deserves' anything any more than anyone else.

But there is a question in that by acknowledging the lack of free will, we alter a key environmental factor which defines behaviour, most likely for the worse (in terms of motivation and empowerment). So ultimately, practically, is it better to propagate the fallacy that we can make of our lives what we choose? At the expense of the self-respect of those less fortunate? I dont think it can really...

"We" might well make of our lives what "we" choose, but what determines the "we" that makes such choices. Merely retreating to a position of sentimental attachment to the idea of "desert" because it is psychologically and socially self-justifying is not a satisfactory answer... If everything is entirely determined it makes precisely zero difference whether we propagate the pernicious idea of "desert" or not of course...

 

[Mr. Tea]

But on a general note, it amazes me how rarely one comes across people who are willing to believe that no-one really 'deserves' anything any more than anyone else.

It looks like this whole debate is boiling down to the old free-will-vs-determinism argument, then - and confirming the impression I get from certain sections of the left that they believe humans are essentially automata. Because this seems to be an inescapable conclusion of the line of thought that human actions are dictated by environmental pressures to the point that its irrational to reward to apparent 'success' or punish 'wrongdoing'.

So is this what you really think? I just can't believe anyone genuinely thinks like this, in their heart of hearts. When you get Christmas presents from your family, do you intentionally not thank them because they're not 'deserving' of thanks? If someone were to mug you or assault you in the street, would you not press charges, because your attacker was somehow compelled to do it by irresistible forces beyond his control?

 

[mistersloane]

If someone were to mug you or assault you in the street, would you not press charges, because your attacker was somehow compelled to do it by irresistible forces beyond his control?

Yeah, I've been in a situation pretty similar to that - being stabbed in the hand by a neighbour, and I didn't press charges, no, cos putting him back in prison wasn't gonna help anyone.

 

[noel emits]

It looks like this whole debate is boiling down to the old free-will-vs-determinism argument

It's not an either-or situation. I think (nearly) anyone can be self-determining and self-defining but circumstances play a part in how easy it is to realise (in both senses) that.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Yeah, I've been in a situation pretty similar to that - being stabbed in the hand by a neighbour, and I didn't press charges, no, cos putting him back in prison wasn't gonna help anyone.

Except the next person he stabs, whom he'd have been unable to stab if he'd been in prison...
I'm speculating, of course, since I know nothing about this guy. Still, if someone did something like that to me, I'd want to see them punished, unless they were mad, in which case I'd want them treated (and hopefully kept out of other people's way for as long as they're likely to do things like that).

Maybe that sounds harsh, but then, stabbing people is quite harsh.