noel emits
a wonderful wooden reason
big up on the dauner redcrescent. thanks.
Ecm
- Thread starter Woebot
- Start date
what do people think about the label aesthetic? the "slick", "lite", sometimes bordering on "new-age" sort of "adult contemporary" feel?
the label is consistant, but maybe sadly consistantly safe and middle-ground.
for modern jazz, labels like Leo, Emenem are full to the brim with amazing shit, compared to which ECM is boring.
for modern classical ECM doesn't really release anything *really* interesting either. not a single of my hundreds of favorite recordings in this genre have come from ECM.
i have enjoyed and still do, many releases on ECM to be sure, and there have been many good to very good ones.
i enjoyed Anouar Brahem for a little while, before discovering real oud music from the middle east, and forgot about this jazz-fusion LITE stuff.
i like some of the Arvo Part discs, but they are so boring to me now after discovering REAL contemporary composers and not this neo-romantic, neo-classical "back to my catholic roots" choral chants and whatnot. (tabula rasa is wicked though). to be sure in general i prefer soothing rather than disturbing music -- but Part is just not very interesting in the long run.
i like some of Keith Jarret's recordings. but as far as solo modern jazz piano is concerned... i enjoy much more artists like Misha Mengelberg or Paul Bley (different projects of course), whose music is not only "pretty" but deeper and more challenging/interesting.
so in the end, for me, ECM acts as an every-man's entry point to "sophistication", but their self consciously intellectual project wears thin after not too long.
the label is consistant, but maybe sadly consistantly safe and middle-ground.
for modern jazz, labels like Leo, Emenem are full to the brim with amazing shit, compared to which ECM is boring.
for modern classical ECM doesn't really release anything *really* interesting either. not a single of my hundreds of favorite recordings in this genre have come from ECM.
i have enjoyed and still do, many releases on ECM to be sure, and there have been many good to very good ones.
i enjoyed Anouar Brahem for a little while, before discovering real oud music from the middle east, and forgot about this jazz-fusion LITE stuff.
i like some of the Arvo Part discs, but they are so boring to me now after discovering REAL contemporary composers and not this neo-romantic, neo-classical "back to my catholic roots" choral chants and whatnot. (tabula rasa is wicked though). to be sure in general i prefer soothing rather than disturbing music -- but Part is just not very interesting in the long run.
i like some of Keith Jarret's recordings. but as far as solo modern jazz piano is concerned... i enjoy much more artists like Misha Mengelberg or Paul Bley (different projects of course), whose music is not only "pretty" but deeper and more challenging/interesting.
so in the end, for me, ECM acts as an every-man's entry point to "sophistication", but their self consciously intellectual project wears thin after not too long.
Woebot
Well-known member
thanks especially redcrescent and francesco.
@franceso, yeah my (punk-inflected) instincts match your on this.
mms you look like you're at the same level on ECM as me.
come to think of it, i have hassell's powerspot and reich's music for 18 musicians but neither struck me as particularly ECM-like......yeah yeah they're on the dinner party tip but....
i've heard dauner's output (wow everyone raving about dauner at the moment, he's all over the cope japrock book) - but i really wasn't that impressed
though the first rypdal album looks like it might be essential.
@psherburne "Heard a bit of Anouar Brahem's "Astrakan Cafe" while interviewing Villalobos" yeah that makes a lot of sense! i wonder if kompakt (scuse ignorance) might be compared to ECM in hindsight rather than (say) Trax.
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Leo
Well-known member
sounds interesting, can you give some recommendations for both oud and mengelberg?
Diggedy Derek
Stray Dog
Jewel in the Lotus by Bennie Maupin is indeed a great album. It's restrained, but there's a sense of space and vertigo there. Really nice.
fokse vektaire xeven
Arab Nazi
Interesting thread, i find the ECM aesthetic pretty hard to swallow though i admit it is at least distinctive(?) However ouch! on Martin Davidson's behalf at emanem being labelled with the J word
on Martin Davidson's behalf at emanem being labelled with the J word
oh right. haha apologize... what i meant is post-jazz lowercase avant free improvisation
Jonesy
Wild Horses
People seem to have a problem with the aesthetic of the label's artwork. I don't know why. I think the artwork is pretty irrelevant.
I discovered the label via some Keith Jarrett that someone lent to me and I've enjoyed everything I've heard on the label. I've heard things that I've never found elsewhere. The musicians are generally of a very high calibre and just because they don't feel the need to blow my ears off my head doesn't make the adherents to some safe, sophisticated music. Restraint doesn't necessarily detract from music IMHO.
That said, my mum is unlikely to complain if I play it at dinner.
I discovered the label via some Keith Jarrett that someone lent to me and I've enjoyed everything I've heard on the label. I've heard things that I've never found elsewhere. The musicians are generally of a very high calibre and just because they don't feel the need to blow my ears off my head doesn't make the adherents to some safe, sophisticated music. Restraint doesn't necessarily detract from music IMHO.
That said, my mum is unlikely to complain if I play it at dinner.
Ness Rowlah
Norwegian Wood
I quite liked "Waves" (77) as well (which of course has trees on the cover), but it
seems to be out of print and my copy is on cassette (and haven't owned a deck for years)
so my memory of it might be a bit hazy ...
I saw Rypdal on Norwegian telly this summer (and my sister and her new
boyfriend saw him live at Molde). Looks like he is drinking heavily , he looked extremely bloated and out of shape. Still plays like a god though.
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now do you know why? (i know I'm being harsh, as i do like some of ECM's photography. but you asked)
I'm into loads of music that would put your mum to sleep. (or not even notice that there's music on
) so it's not "restraint" that is the problem -- the problem is non-descript middle-of-the-road new-agey generic noodling, which comprises at least some, maybe small, part of the label's output. (of course there are lots of good things from them dont get me wrong)question for Woebot:
i seem to remember seeing your reply in the infamous "Hate Thread" saying that you hated all jazz music. which i thought was odd to say the least.
so were you taking the piss or have you had a change of heart? or are you only interested in the classical bits of ECM?
if you've had a change of heart i'm curious as to what did it?
i seem to remember seeing your reply in the infamous "Hate Thread" saying that you hated all jazz music. which i thought was odd to say the least.
so were you taking the piss or have you had a change of heart? or are you only interested in the classical bits of ECM?
if you've had a change of heart i'm curious as to what did it?
psherburne
Well-known member
one of those sleeves you put up there above reminds me of another:
<img src="http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf100/f142/f14222kyoc1.jpg">
i agree, ECM's visual aesthetic can be a little tired -- like, ok, we get it, cliffs are windswept, and this is moody. (of the above three covers, i like the left one, not the center and right ones.) but the design seems a bit of a red herring. in some ways it's not THAT far off from the visual aesthetic of the excellent (and surely more "avant") <a href="http://www.hathut.com/">hathut</a> labels...
<img src="http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf100/f142/f14222kyoc1.jpg">
i agree, ECM's visual aesthetic can be a little tired -- like, ok, we get it, cliffs are windswept, and this is moody. (of the above three covers, i like the left one, not the center and right ones.) but the design seems a bit of a red herring. in some ways it's not THAT far off from the visual aesthetic of the excellent (and surely more "avant") <a href="http://www.hathut.com/">hathut</a> labels...
Woebot
Well-known member
(splutters) WHAAAAAT! i never said that! i have literally hundreds of the bloody things!
i've always disliked the (adorns polo-neck and beret, puts on insouciant expression) jazzzzzzz attitude, but even lots of the music that lifestyle twits like that profess to celebrate i dig too.
two words zhao: Giles and Peterson
(its funny you say this cos i've been working up to a week of jazz for some time now: xxxxxxxx xxxxx/xxxxxxx/xxxxx xxxx/xxxxxxx/xxxxxx xxxxxx/xxxxxx/xxx/xxxx xxxx xxxxxxxxx)
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jahquarius
ByTown's Finest
remember though that ecm has been putting out music for more than 35 years. it's hard to apply a single judgment to a label that put out Output, LoveLove, Jewel in the Lotus, and then moved into stuff like Terje Rypdal and Keither Jarrett, and then the Hillard Ensemble and Arvo Part. there's a "big name" narrative to the label for sure, and those names don't have much tying them together, so the label always seemed a bit schizo to me. but across the years there have been lots of gems in the spaces between those places...
for me the first series is where it's at: lots of bizarre and deeply experimental takes on jazz from all kinds of different cultural angles. but even in the later years, some amazing things will just pop out of nowhere. like this:
Rios Negros is one of my favorite jazz tunes ever: listen at around the 5 minute mark, when Lester's trumpet sulks back into the mix... amazing stuff imo. (and bonus points if you can spot the pop dnb sample at the very beginning of the tune
)there are some great things in the ecm catalog, but like any label that's put out so many releases over so many years, there's obviously more slag than gold and it can be frustrating to find the good bits because they do their best to homogenize their product.
i knew my short term was in a bit of trouble but now apparently the long-term memory is going too!
had a look and what you said is you hated all country and western. old and new... sorry about that.must admit i don't know much of Giles Peterson's music, but have had a horrible impression of it for the longest time (from seeing him live once a long time ago). any recommendations?
for me jazz lately has been a functional music rather than exploratory of inner-states or whatever. so great to put on some Lee Konitz, Warne Marsh, Paul Bley, or Lenny Tristano while eating, conversing, working, reading, doing laundry... never imagined i'd be so into all these white jazz musicians :slanted: