Direct me to broken-beat in London please

elgato

I just dont know
I think the distinction is that with "breakbeats", there is usually something constant, like a shaker, ride or hi hat keeping time, with the kicks and snares shifted.

i always imagined that the distinction came mostly in terms of the degree of break chopping... i.e. jungle and other 'breakbeat' music always use fatter splices of breakbeat, wheras broken beat always seems like single hits step-programmed (sliced up out of 'live' breaks, and retaining a more organic feel, as opposed to much of 2step say). that and the vibe of course
 
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aMinadaB

Well-known member
no-one wants another acid jazz revival thats why. its a subnote of a subnote of an unread footer in terms of dance history. i can think of four tunes which are passable and even then i have to hold my nose to say i like them, such is the opproprium heaped upon the west london scenes shoulders. berets, jazz ciggies, toe-curlingly faux-sophistication - NEVER AGAIN.

and ultimately their sole selling point beyond the "warmness" (a euhpanism for jazz lite if ever i heard one), the brokenness of the beats themselves have been way surpassed by dubstep long ago - and before that jungle makes a mockery of those pretensions. does anyone still really like it?

i don't know why, but the very idea of it makes me feel light-headed with irritation.
For the sake of discussion I'll play devil's advocate to this commonly stated view about the social/outward implications of broken beat ^^^ : :D

Since Im not from the UK, the endless (and endlessly tedious) comments about this being aspirant west end cognoscenti-wannabees or whatever just goes nowhere as a musical criticism, because I don't care, and there's not enough time in the day to process the UK class issue - ultimately it's not my problem ffs! Broken beat at its best, at least to my ears, links up with traditions on which I was raised, i.e., motown, philly soul, r&b, jazz funk, hip-hop, and so on, then gets twisted as it passes through the junglist bottleneck - so of course I'm going to take an interest. Personally speaking, I love good broken beat, and as has been pretty much universally acknowledged, the bugz fabric mix is a great example of how potent this music can be. Especially with the vocals, which are fking awesome. Plus, the way it accommodates artwork red, with its nod to other emergent strands, etc etc...

As for "berets, jazz ciggies, toe-curlingly faux-sophistication - NEVER AGAIN," yeah sure, typical comment. But to this I would ask: who really cares, ultimately, what the dorky scenesters are doing with the fashion of the scene? One could VERY easily poke fun at the standard dubstep weedy whiteboys chiming "yo bad bwoy, bassline was SICK" with their hoodies and hats sideways and writing broken english on forums and doing their best to belong (yes, I've been to dubwar, a friend of mine played one). I mean, in some ways, to someone removed from these scenes, all outward attempts at identity-building through fashion can look sillly. Or, it can look perfectly human. Who cares, ultimately? I don't. To each his own. If they like berets I'm fine with that, not really my place to judge, not really interested in judging others to begin with, etc etc. I'm infinitely more interested in knowing if the music is doing something special, and if people can articulate it or not.
 
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bassnation

the abyss
As for "berets, jazz ciggies, toe-curlingly faux-sophistication - NEVER AGAIN," yeah sure, typical comment. But to this I would ask: who really cares, ultimately, what the dorky scenesters are doing with the fashion of the scene? One could VERY easily poke fun at the standard dubstep weedy whiteboys chiming "yo bad bwoy, bassline was SICK" with their hoodies and hats sideways and writing broken english on forums and doing their best to belong (yes, I've been to dubwar, a friend of mine played one). I mean, in some ways, to someone removed from these scenes, all outward attempts at identity-building through fashion can look sillly. Or, it can look perfectly human. Who cares, ultimately? I don't. To each his own. If they like berets I'm fine with that, not really my place to judge, not really interested in judging others to begin with, etc etc. I'm infinitely more interested in knowing if the music is doing something special, and if people can articulate it or not.


lol, well the berets thing was tounge-in-cheek - i've been to broken beats nights and i never saw anyone wearing one, really. now that is a real acid jazz look, so it was a pisstake.

but sonically - i dunno, i just can't see it as future music, its too rooted in the past, for all its wannabe glitchiness, its that smooove jazz sound all over again, a sonic signifier of all kinds of bullshit. yes, dubstep has its own and those are laughable too. its been superseded in every significant area by other music that is more ruff, more innovative, more inspirational. its time has been and gone. and its got fuckall to do with jungle btw apart from the 4hero link and we all know how much of a junglist influence they brought to the party. noodles are never acceptable, even with the best of intentions.
 
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bassnation

the abyss
i always imagined that the distinction came mostly in terms of the degree of break chopping... i.e. jungle and other 'breakbeat' music always use fatter splices of breakbeat, wheras broken beat always seems like single hits step-programmed (sliced up out of 'live' breaks, and retaining a more organic feel, as opposed to much of 2step say). that and the vibe of course

it depends on the jungle surely. i've got stuff that is a million times more chopped than the glitchiest broken beat. bb rhythms are pretty minimal in comparision.
 

elgato

I just dont know
it depends on the jungle surely. i've got stuff that is a million times more chopped than the glitchiest broken beat. bb rhythms are pretty minimal in comparision.

yeh i don't mean to say that broken beat is more complex, by any means, especially with regard to outcome... just that the technique is different (i think), and the rhythmic feel is therefore different. i might be completely on the wrong track with this stuff though, i dunno
 

bassnation

the abyss
??

So your point is that it's got nothing to do with glitchiness, but it's "wannabe glitchy", even though it clearly isn't, but perhaps it should be?

hey, don't tie me up with your sneaky solipsism geezer. just have an inate dislike of noodles, one i don't care to analyse or expect any consistency from - and neither should you. ;)
 

mms

sometimes
there is sme great stuff, alot of the older stuff is foundations of dubstep and a scene that ran along side garage stuff as well, which often has as many jazzy signifiers but in a 'jazz as luxury' way rather than jazz as dance music way.
i have no problem with jazz chords - alot of rave chords and techno stabs etc are the same type of chords etc and broken beat by it's nature isn't even particularly smooth, it's rhythmically bouncy and slightly abstract, but it can sometimes go a bit rhodsey that's for sure.
its got nothing to do with glitch though, that's the nations most overused word when poorly describing dance music.
i think it's making a bit of a comeback with a rougher edge tho, solid groove trevor loveys, sinden etc seem to be getting popular with a slightly altered sound and a diff audience, more housey, more ghetto/shanty house, produced mia etc
 
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hint

party record with a siren
i quite like the sejji tune, but you can't seriously be holding this up as reason for broken beat existing? sounds like a bad basement jaxx cut which missed their latest album.

I'm not holding anything up as a reason for broken beat existing.

It's shakey ground anyway - as I said "broken beat" as an identifable sound only really exists in a small bubble and the scene is more like a speck in the grand scheme of things... you'd go to a "broken beat" night and hear more house music, disco and hip hop than "broken beat" tunes. Very few people involved wanted to become associated with a single style, and that is what is needed I suppose.

But, having said that, Future Rage is a brick and will continue to mean something for a long time to come whether you understand that or not.

Do you at least accept that there are lines to be traced between that track and what the likes of Apple are currently doing?
 

gremino

Moster Sirphine
i always imagined that the distinction came mostly in terms of the degree of break chopping... i.e. jungle and other 'breakbeat' music always use fatter splices of breakbeat, wheras broken beat always seems like single hits step-programmed (sliced up out of 'live' breaks, and retaining a more organic feel, as opposed to much of 2step say). that and the vibe of course
Isn't the characteristic of broken beat rhythm when snare hits a little bit sooner than in 2nd or 4th hit? Just like ukg/old dubstep-rhythm, but drum samples are from a whole break.

bassnation said:
it depends on the jungle surely. i've got stuff that is a million times more chopped than the glitchiest broken beat. bb rhythms are pretty minimal in comparision.
Although broken beat hasn't as much drum hits and isn't as hectic as jungle, I still think bb tune can be rhythmically more complex than an average jungle tune, in groove-wise. And if you think drumfunk stuff, it's rhythms are quite obvious. I think the groove in that stuff is actually quite simple, whereas broken beat has this broken, stop/start groove.

What I love about broken beat styled rhythms, is that it can be very complex but at the same time very danceable. It takes skills to write these kind of beats.

Offtopic: Whatt irritates me, is people's attitude towards writing a jungle rhythm: many seems to think it's about writing complex breaks for the sake of complexity, instead of keeping the groove in mind. There's a lot of stuff which rhythms really doesn't have any sense, no groove...
 

bassnation

the abyss
Isn't the characteristic of broken beat rhythm when snare hits a little bit sooner than in 2nd or 4th hit? Just like ukg/old dubstep-rhythm, but drum samples are from a whole break.


Although broken beat hasn't as much drum hits and isn't as hectic as jungle, I still think bb tune can be rhythmically more complex than an average jungle tune, in groove-wise. And if you think drumfunk stuff, it's rhythms are quite obvious. I think the groove in that stuff is actually quite simple, whereas broken beat has this broken, stop/start groove.

What I love about broken beat styled rhythms, is that it can be very complex but at the same time very danceable. It takes skills to write these kind of beats.

Offtopic: Whatt irritates me, is people's attitude towards writing a jungle rhythm: many seems to think it's about writing complex breaks for the sake of complexity, instead of keeping the groove in mind. There's a lot of stuff which rhythms really doesn't have any sense, no groove...

well these are good points. i think tho that choppage is a bad example maybe, as its a homage to an era and its very point is not innovation but recreation and nostalgia. the reasons those mind bending beats sound predictable is because its formulaic. at the time they weren't, it was truly what people could not imagine.

and yes, broken in a way did take things in a different direction, but even that now (years on) fits a groove in my brain which i know. which is what i meant by it being superseded by dubstep rhytmically, which is broken in a way which i haven't got used to, at some point my brain will "fix" that beat so no matter how fucked up it is, i'll be used to it. familiarity breeds contempt.

and yes, i'm with you on the losing the groove thing - which is why all the idm jungle stuff didn't do it for me. yes i understood the joke, would i want to listen to it, would i feel passion for it? probably not. having said that the latest shitmat lp (grooverider lp) drops the irony in favour for absolute fidelity in terms of reproducing the vibe. its not innovative but it fucking rocks. contradicting myself within one thread tho if anyone wants to shoot me to bits.
 
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bassnation

the abyss
I'm not holding anything up as a reason for broken beat existing.

It's shakey ground anyway - as I said "broken beat" as an identifable sound only really exists in a small bubble and the scene is more like a speck in the grand scheme of things... you'd go to a "broken beat" night and hear more house music, disco and hip hop than "broken beat" tunes. Very few people involved wanted to become associated with a single style, and that is what is needed I suppose.

But, having said that, Future Rage is a brick and will continue to mean something for a long time to come whether you understand that or not.

Do you at least accept that there are lines to be traced between that track and what the likes of Apple are currently doing?

alright i have been a bit unfair and you've been entirely reasonable. i get the argument on broken beats being a container, a vibe more than a specification, a bit like the much-maligned big beat, which at its best covered everything from jungle to old skool hip hop to anything that rocked. the point where it went shit was when it had a specific meaning, and then people become closed minded. and to be truthful the broken beats nights i've gone to i've enjoyed some of the music (but not the wanky noodly stuff, i stick to that).

wrt future rage ok can accept you dig it, can also accept its a big tune but i don't like it or understand it. i don't want to come out with that objective cop out "its all music maaaaan" because its silly to be objective about art, kind of misses the point. but i'm not a total cunt and if it makes people happy fair enough. i'd be leaving when that dropped tho, i will say that much.
 
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hint

party record with a siren
to be truthful the broken beats nights i've gone to i've enjoyed some of the music (but not the wanky noodly stuff, i stick to that).

Don't get me wrong - I'm not keen on wanky noodly stuff either... but I think we just have the thresholds set differently on our "wanky noodle" alarms.
 

michael

Bring out the vacuum
recloose, aka matt chicoine, lives in new zealand now and plays in a live jazz-funk band
He's got a quick spot in the local newspaper today.
First song he liked? Stevie Wonder's Sir Duke.
Fave album? Coltrane's Giant Steps.
Best gig he attended? Innerzone Orchestra at Montreal Jazz Fest.
Fave Saturday night album? Mojo Classics Midnight Funk Association (comp of 80s Detroit stuff as played by the Electrifying Mojo)
Fave Sunday morning album? Steely Dan's The Royal Scam.
Recently listening to? Rush Hour, Kindred Spirits labels

Ticks lots of boxes wrt what I imagine a broken beat mindset is about.
 
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