The Romantic auteur-visionary artist

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
prove it, luka :)

It's incumbent on you to prove it (as, so far, most people have singularly failed to show genius) - Luka will randomly pick a field for you to excel in and you will do so, through sheer effort.

I suggest that you become a world-class topiarist.
 

elgato

I just dont know
sorry to geek out, but this stuff is part of my dissertation research so i have scads of articles about this kind of thing, if anyone lacks access to academic networks and wants a copy of an article I'd be happy to share..

thanks so much for the post ripley, really interesting, and some great tips! definitely going to follow some of them up
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Yes, but that one percent is crucial - perspiration is a necessary but not sufficient condition for genius viz. Robbie Savage / Lionel Messi.

Oh sure, I wasn't trying to deny that! When you have perspiration without inspiration you end up with...well, Status Quo, I guess. ;)

Who are those guys you mentioned?
 

luka

Well-known member
savage runs around a footbal pitch like a headless chicken enthusiastically fouling anyone he can catch up with. messi is something like the 3rd best young footballer in the world.
 

elgato

I just dont know
are things not getting mixed up? i think i definitely am so please forgive any confusion that i add...

the initial post was about why people find a specific notion of 'genius' so appealing, attaching certain conditions to the idea. this is now about a very specific aspect of that notion. either way, the definition of 'genius' is a key i think

this might derail the thread further, but it seems fundamental to the question... how do we recognise 'genius'? football is imo an inadequate analogy as it is a practice framed by much more certain objectives, wheras when it comes to music i am a staunch believer in ultimate subjectivity... progress can only be made by coming to agree certain objectives or ideals which are to be aspired to

is anyone denying that different people have different tendencies and different abilities to achieve given objectives? is the original post not really about the value we place on those tendencies and trying to understand the reasons that we do?
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
It's incumbent on you to prove it (as, so far, most people have singularly failed to show genius) - Luka will randomly pick a field for you to excel in and you will do so, through sheer effort.

I suggest that you become a world-class topiarist.

I don't think genius is just a matter of effort at all - but I'd be interested in an argument for the idea that genius necessarily exists as something abstract outside those conditions that allowed for any particular 'genius' to excel in his given field.

So you know, like if luka had been brought up exactly like ghetto, and had also put the same work in, he could be as good an MC.
 

arcaNa

Snakes + Ladders
There is no tabula rasa mind from which the genius spring from birth, fully formed... Never has been.
The few artists who happen to achieve their full potential in the course of their working life (the so-called 'geniouses') have grown slowly, following a learning curve. And that learning curve starts with the teachers, the influences and the first fumbling experiments.
Some artists happen to have both the talent, the luck to be able to fine-hone and develop that talent, and the time and economic means to devote themselves to their Art.

A teacher once told me, "genious is 1% talent, 99% hard work"...Well, that's not quite true.
Some people work 500%, yet still lack the undefinable something which makes the difference between just 'good', and 'great'.
But that doesn't mean their art is less valuable, just that the really great talents are few and far between. This naturally causes some envy, perhaps jusifiably so as a lot of brilliant people when faced with success can turn into/come across as a bit up their own.

That doesn't meant that collective art will automaticallyproduce any better results than the lone individual, each approach have their advantages- A lot of art, especially in brief partnerships between two equally ambitious and able craftsmen (songwriters, f.i.) can lift the results to a whole new level where the sum is greater than the parts, something which they never could have made alone.

However, every scenes have their mediocrities and hangers-on, there are few names who will be remembered... Not always the "great ones" either, lol- will the retirement homes in a few decades' time play britney and GA?

While the romantic ideal stereotype of the suffering, white male genious Artist with a capital 'A' is easily ludicrous, and the pointless 'up on a pedestal', 'larger than life' artist myth is bollocks, there is a part of me who still thinks that it's a good thing to retain some sense of fascination for mystery, the fantastic, lofty ideals/visions, re: the artistic process...
Rationalism only gets you so far (socialist realism, anyone?), and some of the psychological or (neuro-?)biological processes which makes up the 'inspirations' which fire up creativity tend to express themselves better in irrational, intuitive form- Whether one chooses to think of this as 'mystical' or not, there will always be an element of this [the unknown, irrational, intuitive] in artistic creation...
Luckily one doesn't need to be a 'genious' to have access to such inspiration. :)
The more, the merrier.
 
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mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Oh sure, I wasn't trying to deny that! When you have perspiration without inspiration you end up with...well, Status Quo, I guess. ;)

Who are those guys you mentioned?

They're both footballers - Messi is a genius, Savage is a water-carrier.

What I find odd is that in most things, there is a dominant force, a genius excelling all others - Tiger in golf; Nadal in clay court tennis; Federer in all other tennis; Pele in football; Gretsky in ice hockey; O'Sullivan in snooker - and they overcome through superior skill and creativity, not dull force. It is implausible that they are better just because they have worked harder, especially as most of them reach the top of the tree early on in their careers.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I don't think genius is just a matter of effort at all - but I'd be interested in an argument for the idea that genius necessarily exists as something abstract outside those conditions that allowed for any particular 'genius' to excel in his given field.

I would say the existence of a certain kind of child prodigy falls into this category. Not the musician/singer/athlete who's been coached practically from birth by an obsessive 'champion breeder' parent (Michael Jackson, the Williams sisters), I'm thinking more of the mathematical prodigy in the vein of Carl Gauss of Paul Erdos who spontaneously exhibits the use of exceptional analytical skills from a very young age, simply because they find it rewarding.

Naturally I guess discussion of 'genius' in the context of Dissensus is going to focus more on music (and perhaps 'the arts' more generally)...

Edit: durrr, I just saw the title of this thread, OBVIOUSLY it's more about artists than 'thinkers' as such.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
progress can only be made by coming to agree certain objectives or ideals which are to be aspired to

Genius appears in relief - against a backdrop of mediocrity cf. Burial and dubstep

I suppose when people are 'ahead of their time,' there is no backdrop available.

There might also be genius (ie significant individual difference) in some people's unusual receptivity to training.
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
spontaneously exhibits the use of exceptional analytical skills from a very young age

some folks would call that autism innit?

Mr. Tea said:
Naturally I guess discussion of 'genius' in the context of Dissensus is going to focus more on music (and perhaps 'the arts' more generally)...

yep, and Elgato is on point I think - focusing on being good at snooker or something is completely different, and I would never call Tiger Woods a genius for being good at golf.. I would take it further, maybe, and say that possibly that kind of ultimate subjectivity is just another condition for a successful definition genius - there's nothing mysterious about being good at golf.. is there? Being world number one simply means you are better at doing a very specific thing than anyone else. Whereas music is so subjective and personal that it's incredible that one musician can connect on a deep, personal level with millions of people.

At the moment I'm leaning towards thinking that this kind of subjectivity being a condition for genius actually makes the term rather pointless, and I only really use it when being flippant. It also seems kind of self-defeating - attempting to define the undefinable as undefinable...

mixed biscuits said:
Genius appears in relief - against a backdrop of mediocrity cf. Burial and dubstep

I'd say that's an argument against Burial displaying genius, rather than for it. Lowered standards makes for an easier target.
 
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mixed_biscuits

_________________________
there's nothing mysterious about being good at golf.. is there? Being world number one simply means you are better at doing a very specific thing than anyone else.

Sure, it might be easy to imagine a 'textbook' golfer doing everything perfectly - what is mysterious is that a fallible human can dare approach this impossible standard and, in doing so, might find solutions to golfing problems of which others wouldn't even be able to conceive, not just find difficult to execute mechanically.
 
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UFO over easy

online mahjong
haha fair play! but has tiger woods done that? that sounds superhuman to me, like a condition for being a genius golfer being to learn how to break the laws of physics :D

Mr. Tea said:
Umm, they might, but they'd be wrong. Most autistics are of below average intelligence, and many are severely retarded.

I know nothing about it, I had just thought that one of the things to look out for in extremely young children was an unusual aptitude to certain kinds of thinking.
 
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mixed_biscuits

_________________________
haha fair play! but has tiger woods done that? that sounds superhuman to me, like a condition for being a genius golfer being to learn how to break the laws of physics :D

I suppose I am thinking of strategic thinking - applying yourself physically after taking a mental reading of the state of play and guaging possibilities for action. This would take good analytical skills and a dash of creativity.

Ugh I apologise for my part in diverting this topic to golf. Very poor show.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
haha fair play! but has tiger woods done that? that sounds superhuman to me, like a condition for being a genius golfer being to learn how to break the laws of physics :D

Pffft...

SCOTTIE: "Ah cannae change the laws o' physics, Capn'n!"
KIRK: "Dammit! Where is...Tiger Woods when...you need him?"

:D
I know nothing about it, I had just thought that one of the things to look out for in extremely young children was an unusual aptitude to certain kinds of thinking.

Well there's no such single syndrome as autism, people talk about 'autistic spectrum disorders' instead, from the very mild (eg. Asperger's, which is often associated with people who are good at analytical thinking - and has become something of a self-diagnosis fad among unsociable Internerds to explain why they don't have any friends) to 'low-functioning autism', which basically requires people to be looked after their whole lives (and not because they're too busy doing advanced mathematics to feed and wash themselves).
 
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Slothrop

Tight but Polite
are things not getting mixed up? i think i definitely am so please forgive any confusion that i add...

the initial post was about why people find a specific notion of 'genius' so appealing, attaching certain conditions to the idea. this is now about a very specific aspect of that notion.
Yeah, to reply to this and Luka's post at once, I wasn't really thinking about whether genius exists or not, the point is that the geniuses writing for motown (and performing for motown) were doing so in an unashamedly commercial 'hit factory'. Perhaps - even probably - financially motivated hitmakers need to have at least a spark of genius if not several if they're going to produce great music, but the original post was about people who'd say that making financially motivated decisions is anathema to making great music, that if the funk brothers or Holland-Dozier-Holland had wanted to make 'great art' they should have been purely true to their artistic drive and not worrying about producing successful records...
 

elgato

I just dont know
i agree that genius is more or less a term which is best not used if analytical clarity is what we are after, it is too loaded with what i believe to be wool to be worthwhile

Heh, yes, but what does the 'target' look like if only one person hits it? That's where the inexplicable genius bit comes in.

Burial's 'genius' can be deconstructed to a great extent, if we want to be analytical about it... the textures and melodies resonate with a (often unexpressed) sentiment and emotion shared by a large group of people living in our society at this time, while also in a broader sense communicating feelings which a great number of people have experienced, whether in the primary societal context he resonates with or not. he appealed to people on emotional, intelectual and obsessive/'cult' levels - is his 'genius', as posited in any objective sense, not broad appeal?
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
fao slothrop - I think the only way to tackle that question though is to admit, and try and figure out why, our common conception of genius is so flawed.
 
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