william_kent

Well-known member
^ I only discovered this through the "hidden in plain sight" NEW PROFILES POST link where various members of the forum believe they are messaging other members via DMs

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@version: an archivists dream of a treasure trove

edit: I own a wooden spoon

edit: this is why we can't have nice things, fully expecting link above to 404 tomorrow

#comedy_gold
 

william_kent

Well-known member
this is the sort of point where I realise why I didn't mouth off to @dilbert1 about how I knew Vini's wife, etc., and how although he was never MADCHESTER his wife certainly was..., well not maybe, but I reunited with her on the night I was off my fucking tits on WHITE DOVES in the HACIENDA and she was "fancy seeing you here, long time no see", etc., before jumping on a podium and 'throwing shapes'


edit: I feel like I will deleting posts in a fury later tonight
 

william_kent

Well-known member
what a moment to witness

have I ever mentioned about the time when we were walking through the Hulme crescents, manchester UK and the nude model ( who my mate was seeing ) from the local art school stopped some GUY and and point blank asked him "are you GERALD?'

edit: his sheepish reply was 'yes'
 

william_kent

Well-known member
so.... a guy called gerald?

yeah

I was a bit slow on the uptake and we ended up at my mate's flat with the nude life class model and it was about around about this tune that I realised I should "fetch my coat"




WACKIES

but Gerald never came back to that flat, he whizzed off and some time later he made a tune called "voodoo ray'

edit I was "hanging out`` with all the art students from the art college at that time and they ( male and female and everyone else ) were unanimous about the fitness of the "nude life class model', I do not understand how Gerald did not respond to her invitation

edit: she was a statuesque ebony goddess but Gerald and me ran away while my friend?
 

dilbert1

Well-known member
careful with your language, he is lurking!

edit: you did call him a "top boy at this sound" so anyone would forgive you for the "anonymous" slur... ( see first edit below in my next post - it's all love )

View attachment 19930

edit: he was looking at the late 90s tech step thread, so you dodged a bullet there

I do respect Tim, Kid Lib, Green Bay Wax and people pumping out good jungle tunes or really anyone who genuinely cares about the music in a nerdy obsessive way, regardless of how ‘vanguard’ they are (I’ve seen Tim play out twice and was at the front going ham both times). You can’t force “newness,” its a problem across the whole culture, and I certainly am not making any contributions to what jungle is or could be. But I still reserve the right to be an armchair idealist critic
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
this is why america is the nation which developed the metaphysics of democracy and Deleuze was wrong. the real schizophrenic is the septic tank.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
^ I only discovered this through the "hidden in plain sight" NEW PROFILES POST link where various members of the forum believe they are messaging other members via DMs

View attachment 19931


@version: an archivists dream of a treasure trove

edit: I own a wooden spoon

edit: this is why we can't have nice things, fully expecting link above to 404 tomorrow

#comedy_gold

also i never treat that box as dm, i know it's fully public, which is why my posts are objectively the best.
 

dilbert1

Well-known member
@thirdform all I meant by that was I don't feel I need to be a producer to be a critic, which doesn't have anything to do with Marxism. But with respect to Marxism, I also don't believe in "revolutionary art," artistic excellence isn't amenable to any kind of political orientation, Marxist or otherwise. To quote Trotsky:

Art, like science, not only does not seek orders, but by its very essence, cannot tolerate them. Artistic creation has its laws – even when it consciously serves a social movement.

And I also think, perhaps conversely, that art's greatness, regardless of our intentions or attempts at creative intervention, will always be indirectly related to and in large part limited by (not to mention lag behind) the general level of the horizon of possibility for freedom and social transformation at any given time in the society in which its produced. No renaissance in culture can come about on its own accord.

[A] protest against reality, either conscious or unconscious, active or passive, optimistic or pessimistic, always forms part of a really creative piece of work... [But a]rt, which is the most complex part of culture, the most sensitive and at the same time the least protected, suffers most from the decline and decay of bourgeois society. To find a solution to this impasse through [i.e., merely by means of] art itself is impossible. It is a crisis which concerns all culture... Art can neither escape the crisis nor partition itself off. Art cannot save itself. It will rot away inevitably unless present-day society is able to rebuild itself. This task is essentially revolutionary in character.

Even if jungle, as popular music, always sits somewhere between Art and entertainment, avant-garde and kitsch, it still at its best upheld a modernist credo, insofar as, in the words of Cutrone,

modernism as a pathological symptom of capitalism did not exemplify a culture of its own but only a crisis of bourgeois culture that was not a model for a future emancipated culture, but at best was merely a constrained and distorted as well as fragmentary and incomplete projection of capitalism that was authentic only as an exemplar of its specific historical moment.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
@dilbert1 I don't disagree with any of that, in fact I always recommend Trotsky's literature and revolution to anyone who is interested in such a discussion.

But you can't really wish for an ideal in club music without for that erasing all the accumulated data of craft, so in that sense jungle and techno is tekné (craftsmanship) as the Greeks thought of it.

even reggae as popular music is less constrained by the dj format. what was liberating about disco and hip hop mixing has now entered more of a conformism rather than an antiformism which shattered the old notion of the baroque artist. See @Corpsey talking about how Tim Reaper doesn't have a defined sound (as if this was what was wanted!)

On a more prosaic level, I tend to be sceptical of the idealism of art critics in their lack of materialism not because I want revolutionary art (all attempts at socialist realism have been pretty terrible) but because they fail to fully submit to historicism and thus treat their criticisms as the ramblings of the ex-drunk who wishes they could indulge again.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
@dilbert1 I've said this before but when you look at post-2000 dance music on its own terms, in terms of craftsmanship, all the innovation has been going on in edm, aggy dnb, brostep, even happy hardcore and trance. and whatever that stupid glitch hop stuff is. Now I'm not vouching for any of this music, all of it is terrible, but people kind of hit their heads against a wall when they can't acknowledge that they prefer an earlier aesthetic mode. I do as well, because I find the musical information and the focus is greater, but that's because I have artistic leanings. I'm clearly not anti-entertainment, but I struggle to consume music solely that way, where as most clubbers do not.

That's why I don't expect dance music to blow me away anymore. Not because it can't innovate (it can) but the aesthetic innovations I'm looking for are by and large different.

DJ Hype in that ransome note interview that someone posted upthread said something to the effect that I hope my clientele are kids, and whilst its easy enough for people like me to dismiss that this is always how this music has worked. It's just that we romanticise it in hindsight.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
@dilbert1 not sure if you lot in the land of the septics are familiar with the grooverider rewinds pendulum slam 7 times meme but it's that. I mean that song sounds like a cross between big beat and lil john era crunk with an ultra panaramic widescreen drop. As a fan of crunk I think it's a terrible execution, the aesthetic is reprehensible, but you can't say it wasn't innovative. Just that the innovation was strictly corrolated to getting bums off seats. Grooverider understood this as an entertainer, as a dj, he knew that pendulum were going to be massive, because the mode of listening as a dj and the mode of listening (let us say artistically) are different. This is why rave has always been a music critics nightmare, noone can adequately explain why it at first seems so exhilirating and then descends into the same banal repetition (they know they are doing it, but they still do it.)

The difference is to do with who the innovation is for, and I think people don't want to fully come to terms with that because it would upend a lot of notions about dance music.

 

dilbert1

Well-known member
I have artistic leanings. I'm clearly not anti-entertainment, but I struggle to consume music solely that way, where as most clubbers do not.

That's why I don't expect dance music to blow me away anymore. Not because it can't innovate (it can) but the aesthetic innovations I'm looking for are by and large different.

DJ Hype in that ransome note interview that someone posted upthread said something to the effect that I hope my clientele are kids, and whilst its easy enough for people like me to dismiss that this is always how this music has worked.
the aesthetic is reprehensible, but you can't say it wasn't innovative. Just that the innovation was strictly corrolated to getting bums off seats. […] the mode of listening as a dj and the mode of listening (let us say artistically) are different.

Good points. I think these are tensions inherent in the notion of ‘popular modernism’ (which I never heard get fleshed out by Fisher who I think coined that term although the idea doesn’t seem wholly original to him) and the way avant-gardist tendencies and techniques are latent in/subsumed by mass entertainment. A lot of the ekphrastic exuberance or more social-theoretically inflected ways of talking about jungle that happen here would obviously seem esoteric and simply beside the point to people drawn to the dancefloor. And entertainment is always much more implicated in a youth culture business model than art proper. But I think it says something about the state of culture since, oh, the neoliberal era and beyond that it can feel much more exciting to in some sense intellectualize these underground or alternative exercises in ‘lower’ popular forms (rock and dance music, cinema, fashion, etc.) rather than engage with Art proper whose spaces are already assumed to operate according to a more high minded and reflective logic.

The art of the ‘art world’ (of galleries and critics and serious culture) as the perpetual pursuit of new experience hit a wall about the same time the profit rate hit a wall – in the late 1960s… But who is this ‘art world?’ This is the period, especially in European social-democratic countries, at which it becomes possible for more and more proletarians to get ‘higher’ educations, to go to art school on the welfare state’s dime, to acquire some exposure to ‘culture’ without necessarily any prospects of joining the cognoscenti of New York art-opening wine-sniffers. At the same time Bourdieu is formulating his theory of culture as gate-keeping status-marker, the solidity of this kind of boundary is being objectively undermined. In a way, in the 1970s, art (particularly ‘high art’ of the visual type that is un-reproducible and thus subject to the dynamic of monopoly rent) becomes, on the one side, an asset for financial speculation no different from real estate, entirely removed from anyone but the super-rich (which it proceeds to guiltily reflect upon), and on the other, something kids on the dole do for kicks. Massive amounts of small capitalists are expropriated, the class relation polarizes objectively as the cultural coordinates of pseudo-caste are blasted to pieces. A large middle-bourgeoisie distinguished by ‘taste’ as the ‘public’ for ‘serious culture’ dissolves into laid-back hip billionaires à la Richard Branson, and a proletarian avant-garde à la Throbbing Gristle, with a vast indeterminate sea in between; the ‘art world’ becomes an appendage of high finance as it loses its monopoly on the aesthetic, and the commitment vs. autonomy debates are revived in the squats.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
Good points. I think these are tensions inherent in the notion of ‘popular modernism’ (which I never heard get fleshed out by Fisher who I think coined that term although the idea doesn’t seem wholly original to him) and the way avant-gardist tendencies and techniques are latent in/subsumed by mass entertainment.

Fisher like his mentor Deleuze was hostile to the dialectic and thus like a good deleuzian could find nothing worthwhile in hip hop after it had ceased to be modernist. no room for negativity.

But a fully grounded critique of popular culture has to make room for the distasteful, the mass produced, the kitsch, in short the unpalatable.
 
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