Dawkins' Atheist Bus

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
What is only true for such systems? The 2LOT or its teleological phrasing?

Both, I guess, since they're kind of inseparable. It's a statistical argument, so even with very large systems, there can occasionally occur behaviour seemingly in contravention of it, due to random fluctuations. As a general tendency, though, it still applies to all systems everywhere.

Edit: actually, I'm not sure the law is all that teleological after all. What it says is that the entropy of a closed system will remain constant or increase over time, but this is predicated on the assumption that the system is not already at its maximum entropy, i.e. it is in the special state of non-maximum entropy. So it's an evolution away from a specified initial state, not towards some specified final state. Remember that, statistically, the 'default' (most likely state) for a system to be in is one maximum or very nearly maximum entropy. The only reason not all systems are like this is because of the remarkably low entropy of the early universe, which is what has allowed complex systems to arise in the first place. (Forget floods and dinosaurs, THAT is what people should be arguing about when they debate creationism!)

So I don't think this law is really 'teleological' any more than universal gravitation is 'teleological' because it implies that, eventually, everything is going to end up clumped together in big lumps since gravity is always attractive.

Edit edit: for a seemingly genuine teleological phenomenon, look up recent research in a quantum-mechanical effect called reverse or backwards causality. :cool:
 
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3 Body No Problem

Well-known member
(just seen the discussion on the previous page)

How long does a god take to die, though? In European society as a whole, god was dead long before I was born - the creeping process of secularisation and the burgeoning of the atheistic scientific worldview was going on in Nietzsche's day, well over a hundred years ago, wasn't it? Dawkins must be in his 50s, but even so, mainstream Christianity in Britain was on its last legs when he was a little kid.


The usual narrative that Atheism is a modern phenomenon, and that humans have historically all been religious, is doubtful. It is quite likely that Atheists have always existed. It is even likely that religion is a comparatively novel phenomenon. One conjecture is arose with agriculture.

Part of the problem that most writing about Atheism was done by religion, with all the biases that involves.
 

3 Body No Problem

Well-known member
Edit: actually, I'm not sure the law is all that teleological after all. What it says is that the entropy of a closed system will remain constant or increase over time, but this is predicated on the assumption that the system is not already at its maximum entropy, i.e. it is in the special state of non-maximum entropy. So it's an evolution away from a specified initial state, not towards some specified final state.

That's interesting. I'm not an expert on this, but maximum entropy is itself a state of sorts. A kind of attractor.

So I don't think this law is really 'teleological' any more than universal gravitation is 'teleological' because it implies that, eventually, everything is going to end up clumped together in big lumps since gravity is always attractive.

I think at this point in the discussion, it might be worthwhile to make precise in what sense the term "teleological" is being used. The Wikipedia entry on "Teleology" features this sentence: "<b>It has been claimed that within the framework of thermodynamics, the irreversibility of macroscopic processes is explained in a teleological way</b>" and refers to this articel: "J.S. Wicken, Causal Explanations in Classical and Statistical Thermodynamics, Philosophy of Science, Vol. 48, No. 1 (Mar., 1981), pp. 65-77".

I think of a teleological explanation as one that postulates a process P that contains a model M of its outcome, such that P's behaviour is adaptive towards achieving M despite perturbations from the environment.

Edit edit: for a seemingly genuine teleological phenomenon, look up recent research in a quantum-mechanical effect called reverse or backwards causality. :cool:

In fact, there is no particular a priory reason why causality should always be forward in time.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
What is only true for such systems? The 2LOT or its teleological phrasing?

I don't understand why any law of thermodynamics would be considered 'teleological'--in fact, this is one of the most pernicious lies that's foundational to American creationism. You have no idea how many times I've heard people argue that "there's no way evolution could have happened based on the second law of thermodynamics. because in evolution things just keep getting better and better, and according to entropy, they should be getting worse and worse."

I'm sure I don't need to explain why this is an utterly absurd argument, but if you're going to be teleological about any natural law you do it at your own intellectual peril.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
The usual narrative that Atheism is a modern phenomenon, and that humans have historically all been religious, is doubtful. It is quite likely that Atheists have always existed.

Sure, many of the most important Greek philosophers were atheists, after all. And even some religions - Jainism is often given as an example - have been described as atheistic, though obviously there's a difference between that and modern materialsim. But I can't agree with this:

It is even likely that religion is a comparatively novel phenomenon. One conjecture is arose with agriculture.

It's not as if pre-agricultural societies are confined to distant prehistory, for one thing - they exist even today in some places, and were the norm in (say) Australia and much of the Americas before the era of European colonialism just a couple of hundred years ago, and they all worship gods, spirits, ancestors and forces of nature, right? And even in Europe and the Middle East I'm sure there are votive offerings and cave-paintings that look an awful lot like 'gods' dating from well before agriculture and husbandry. Hell, elephants venerate their dead, which is a vital part of most if not all primitive religions.
 

waffle

Banned
That's obviously not the case, it's the exact opposite of what he professes.

How is it 'obviously' not the case? He professes a teleology repeatedly, endlessly, not only in The Genius of Darwin and The God Delusion, but even in the interview with Paxman that Chaotropic links to above [], where less than two minutes into the discussion he states, "The purpose of human life is DNA." [And Paxman's thumbnail definition of science is quaintly pre-Enlightenment. What the senses tell us!!! He must still be a flat-earther, so].

The thing with Nietzsche's madman is that what he says is only relevant in a society that has already invented God right?

Whatever do you mean? God wasn't 'invented', and what are these other societies you are imagining?

I mean, imagine if humanity had evolved and never seen fit to have a God then the situation of suddenly confronting your responsibilities would not arise.

No, it is the horror of those 'responsibilities', of a world without order and blindly mechanistic, and the inability to come to terms with this, that leads to/perpetuates the God function.

All people would be born implicitly facing this challenge, it's only when you have (or society has) abdicated this responsibility that it becomes something to reassume on God's death. I think that in the increasingly secular West this has become closer and closer to being the case and the parable become less and less relevant.

Nietzsche was, via the Madman, attempting to preach to the (atheistic) secular, without success: they laughed at him, " “I come too early,” he then said. “I am not yet at the right time. This prodigious event is still on its way, and is traveling - it has not yet reached men’s ears." The Madman Parable has therefore, on the contrary, become more and more relevant today, particularly for liberal fundamentalists like Dawkins.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I don't understand why any law of thermodynamics would be considered 'teleological'--in fact, this is one of the most pernicious lies that's foundational to American creationism. You have no idea how many times I've heard people argue that "there's no way evolution could have happened based on the second law of thermodynamics. because in evolution things just keep getting better and better, and according to entropy, they should be getting worse and worse."

I'm sure I don't need to explain why this is an utterly absurd argument, but if you're going to be teleological about any natural law you do it at your own intellectual peril.

Heh, funny story: there's an entry on a website called 'fundies say the darndest things'* where some guy tries to use the second law of thermodynamics to 'prove' that evolution cannot be true - it goes something like "If these so-called scientists are correct, then to compensate for the increasing order represented by evolution, there would have to be something near the earth constantly giving off large amounts of energy - and you'd have thought scientists would have discovered it by now, ha ha!!!".
Yes, it's almost as if there were a huge white-hot ball of gases and plasma hanging there in space, bathing the earth in heat and light all the fucking time. God, scientists are so dumb!.

* http://www.fstdt.com
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"How is it 'obviously' not the case? He professes a teleology repeatedly, endlessly, not only in The Genius of Darwin and The God Delusion, but even in the interview with Paxman that Chaotropic links to above [], where less than two minutes into the discussion he states, "The purpose of human life is DNA." [And Paxman's thumbnail definition of science is quaintly pre-Enlightenment. What the senses tell us!!! He must still be a flat-earther, so]."
Looks to me as though that bit you just quoted is a shortened version of this reply though:

"If you read The Selfish Gene, you will find that the purpose of life certainly has NOTHING to do with the survival of the species. If anything, it is the passing on of genes (which is a very different matter), but in any case the language of purpose can mislead -- as it has misled you. Really there is NO purpose. It is simply that those genes that DO survive are the ones that we see, and whose manifestations we see, in the life that we see. That is all there is to it. There is no higher purpose to evolution. The only higher purposes in the universe are to be found in evolved brains, such as our own when we have a conscious purpose to achieve some goal. And our brains are so accustomed to this that they falsely -- as in your case -- ascribe purpose where it doesn't belong."

http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/FAQs.shtml

Which seems to be fairly consistent with everything else I've ever heard him say. It's easy to be mislead though. If you want to be.

"Whatever do you mean? God wasn't 'invented', and what are these other societies you are imagining?"
Well wasn't he? That's the question isn't it?
As to other societies; in a thought experiment I can invent my own society can't I?

"No, it is the horror of those 'responsibilities', of a world without order and blindly mechanistic, and the inability to come to terms with this, that leads to/perpetuates the God function."
You state that but is it true? How are you so certain?
If it is true then how does it relate to those who deny the existence of God - does that mean that they are doomed to fail to face these responsibilities?

"Nietzsche was, via the Madman, attempting to preach to the (atheistic) secular, without success: they laughed at him, " “I come too early,” he then said. “I am not yet at the right time. This prodigious event is still on its way, and is traveling - it has not yet reached men’s ears." The Madman Parable has therefore, on the contrary, become more and more relevant today, particularly for liberal fundamentalists like Dawkins."
What, because it said so it must become more relevant?
 

waffle

Banned
I'm sure I don't need to explain why this is an utterly absurd argument, but if you're going to be teleological about any natural law you do it at your own intellectual peril.

Maybe they're confusing determinism with teleology?

BTW, you refer to post-structuralism and Lacan upthread. Appropriately, then, here's a Lacanian interpretation of "God is dead" - by way of Descartes, Augustine, and Plotinus - as part of the Imaginary psychic register, or an instance of "The Big Other does not exist":

Philosophically it is difficult to know how to situate Nietzsche’s proclamation that God is dead. It would be a mistake to suggest that this is an ontological thesis or a philosophical argument, for Nietzsche does not demonstrate to us, as an atheist might, that there is no God. Rather, Nietzsche claims that a fundamental mutation or shift has occured in how we understand the world, the nature of being.

I will not here enter into a long discussion of Nietzsche’s narrative as to how we came to kill God. This is not a joyous proclamation– though it may have joyous consequences –but a lament. As Lacan argues, traversing the phantasy lies not so much in coming to see how we are castrated, fissured, or non-identical, but rather coming to see how the big Other through which we organized our desire does not itself exist. That is, the very co-ordinates of our world, desire, and identity collapse when we come to discern the non-existence of the big Other. This comes out most clearly in Descartes’ third meditation, where we are shown how God is not simply the guarantor of the truth of clear and distinct ideas, but of our very being or existence. In this precise Lacanian sense, then, both atheist and theist can still think prior to the death of God.

What strikes me as crucial in this passage is Nietzsche’s remark that we have wiped away the horizon, that we now move without direction, that we are suspended in an infinite void and cold, empty space. The death of God therefore seems to signify a world that has lost its coordinates (what else is a horizon if not a way of co-ordinating our movement?) and where the ground has disappeared beneath us. I take it that the term “God” is a generic term for any sort of transcendental term that would fix meaning and identity. It would be a mistake to assume that “God” simply refers to the God of organized religion. Rather God is a generic term referring to anything on the order of a form, essence, transcendence, identity, substance, permanence, ideal, wholeness, totality and so on.

While the death of God is not an ontological claim, it does present an ontological opening or challenge. In 'De Ordine' Augustine writes that, “The soul therefore, holding fast to this order, and now devoted to philosophy, at first introspects itself; and– as soon as that mode of learning has persuaded it that reason either is the soul itself or belong to it, and that there is in reason nothing more excellent or dominant than numbers, or that reason is nothing else than number– soliloquizes thus: ‘By some kind of inner and hidden activity of mine, I am able to analyze and synthesize the things that ought to be learned; and this faculty of mine is called reason.’… Therefore, both in analzying and in synthesizing, it is oneness that I see, it is oneness that I love. But when I analyze, I seek a homogenous unit; and when I synthesize, I look for an integral unit. In the former case, foreign elements are avoided; in the latter, proper elements are conjoined to form something united and perfect. In order that a stone be a stone, all its parts and its entire nature have been consolidated into one. What about a tree? Is it not true that it would not be a tree if it were not one? What about the members and entrails of any animate being, or any of its component parts? Of a certainty, if they undergo a severance of unity, it will no longer be an animal. And what else do friends strive for, but to be one? And the more they are one, so much the more they are friends. A population forms a city, and dissension is full of danger for it: to dissent– what is that, but to think diversely? An army is made up of many soldiers. And is not any multitude so much the less easily defeated in proportion as it is the more closely united? In fact, the joining is itself called a coin, a co-union, as it were. What about every kind of love? Does it not wish to become one with what it is loving? And if it reaches its object, does it not become one with it? Carnal pleasure affords such ardent delight for no other reason than because the bodies of lovers are brought into union. Why is sorrow distressful? Because it tries to rend what used to be one” (chapter 18, paragraph 48).

The central “onto-theological” assumption is not so much that of God– God, as Descartes argues, is only a guarantor of that which cannot be guaranteed by our senses or appearances –but rather the assumption of the One. Whether the One be substance remaining identical throughout change such as Descartes’ wax, or the one of a transcendent form immune to the distortions of images, appearances, and sophists, or whether it be the one of personal identity or a subject that is the same despite all its ever changing thoughts, or the one of a holistic universe where everything is interconnected and harmonious, or the one of a state, the one is always the avatar of theological thought. As such, the death of God signifies first and most fundamentally the end of the primacy of the One in whatever form it might take. To announce the death of God is, as both Deleuze and Badiou have declared, to simultaneously declare that the One, the identical, the same, is only a product, a result, a term-become rather than a foundation or first. As such, metaphysics in the wake of God is a metaphysics that seeks to think difference first and to see identity as a result or product. That is, we must be vigilant in tracking down and eradicating all remainders of theology within such a thought.

Philosophically those ontologies premised on identity or the One as their first principle issue in irresolvable problems. Ethically and politically such philosophies are premised on the predominance of the Imaginary, the yearning for totality, completeness, and wholeness, as can be seen in Augustine’s example of the army and the city. The problem is that such organizations are inherently conflictual. As Plotinus, another thinker of the One will write when describing beauty and purity, “If a man has been immersed in filth or daubed with mud, his native comeliness disappears and all that is seen is the foul stuff besmearing him: his ugly condition is due to the alien matter that has encrusted him, and if he is to win back his grace it must be his business to scour and purify himself and make himself what he was” (Ennead I, sixth tractate, paragraph 5). This little parable ought to serve as the skeleton key for all philosophies of the One. Every desire for the One– whether in the form of identity, collective unity, the holism of the universe, etc. –is always accompanied by this “foul stuff that besmearches” it or the alien matter that must be eradicated. As such, we must ask whether it’s possible to formulate a politics beyond the One, beyond identification, beyond identity, and an ethics beyond the same. Lacan expresses this entire dialectic well in his discourse of the master.

In Lacanian terms this amounts to formulating a metaphysics, ontology, or philosophy that would no longer be premised on the discourse of the master. As Lacan writes it, the discourse of the master is configured as follows:

S1 —> S2
– –
$ // a

Here [above] we have the self-identical subject addressing the world as its other, producing objet a as a remainder or scrap that escapes theorization (Descartes’ pineal gland?), which the barred subject in the position of truth or the unconscious as that which is excluded from the discourse. Here objet a is the scrap of alien matter of which Plotinus speaks– a harbinger of purges, oppositional social relations (us versus them), and that bit of filth to be mastered. The paradox, of course, is that objet a is not an alien matter that comes from without as Plotinus or Augustine would contend, but rather is a result of the repressed truth of the master’s self-identity itself: namely that he is split, fissured, different from himself. Thus another way of formulating the question of the death of God is to ask what a philosophy that was not premised on the discourse of the master would look like.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
How is it 'obviously' not the case? He professes a teleology repeatedly, endlessly, not only in The Genius of Darwin and The God Delusion, but even in the interview with Paxman that Chaotropic links to above [], where less than two minutes into the discussion he states, "The purpose of human life is DNA."

That's a rather dishonest representation of what Dawkins says, which is:

In one sense there is a purpose in our existence, which is the propagation of our DNA...

...by which he means that humans (or any other life form) wouldn't exist were it not for the self-replicating tendencies of DNA. Just as the 'purpose' of our eyes is to see, the 'purpose' of our livers is to store nutrients and so on. It does not imply a capital-p Purpose in the mind of some Higher Being which orders the world according to Its preconceived plan.

Again, another misrepresentation:
And Paxman's thumbnail definition of science is quaintly pre-Enlightenment. What the senses tell us!!! He must still be a flat-earther, so...

If the earth were flat, surely I'd be able to see Mount Everest from my bedroom window on a clear day? My point being, that even very crude naked-eye observations can, if coupled with a modicum of rational thought, lead to the conclusion that the earth is indeed spherical, or at least not flat. This was well known to the ancient Greeks, and they didn't have lots of fancy modern scientific instruments at their disposal.
Paxman describes science as "an extrapolation of what we perceive through our senses..." - would you disagree with this? How, exactly, do you suppose Copernicus discovered the flaws in the old Ptolemaic heliocentric cosmology - by just thinking really hard about the universe? Or did he make accurate observations and then think hard about these, and realise there were inconsistencies in the prevalent system? What are telescopes, microscopes, mass spectrometers, gas chromatographs, particle detectors and antibody screening procedures if not extensions of our senses, with which to gather information about the world? But you've already demonstrated your fashionable post-structuralist contempt for all things 'empiricist', so I'm probably wasting my breath here...

Edit:
S1 —> S2
– –
$ // a

Fair enough, I stand corrected. You win.
 
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3 Body No Problem

Well-known member
I don't understand why any law of thermodynamics would be considered 'teleological'--in fact, this is one of the most pernicious lies that's foundational to American creationism. You have no idea how many times I've heard people argue that "there's no way evolution could have happened based on the second law of thermodynamics. because in evolution things just keep getting better and better, and according to entropy, they should be getting worse and worse."

I'm sure I don't need to explain why this is an utterly absurd argument, but if you're going to be teleological about any natural law you do it at your own intellectual peril.

I do <b>not</b> support creationism or this particular argument (with which I'm not familiar). There are interesting questions to be asked about why our universe has strongly negentropic feature whereever we look, and how to reconcile this with the second law of theormodynamics, or if the second law of theormodynamics does apply to the universe as such, but these are different issues.

I am pointing out that the second law of thermodynamics can and has been phrased as saying that the world is drawn towards the a simple final state, that of maximal entropy. This can be seen as a form of teleology. I chose this as an example of how teleological explanations can be seen as abbreviations for certain form of random behaviour.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
I am pointing out that the second law of thermodynamics can and has been phrased as saying that the world is drawn towards the a simple final state, that of maximal entropy. This can be seen as a form of teleology. I chose this as an example of how teleological explanations can be seen as abbreviations for certain form of random behaviour.
"Nature abhors a vacuum" is another classic, I suppose.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I do <b>not</b> support creationism or this particular argument (with which I'm not familiar). There are interesting questions to be asked about why our universe has strongly negentropic feature whereever we look, and how to reconcile this with the second law of theormodynamics, or if the second law of theormodynamics does apply to the universe as such, but these are different issues.

I am pointing out that the second law of thermodynamics can and has been phrased as saying that the world is drawn towards the a simple final state, that of maximal entropy. This can be seen as a form of teleology. I chose this as an example of how teleological explanations can be seen as abbreviations for certain form of random behaviour.

I quite liked your definition of a teleological explanation, from the last page:

I think of a teleological explanation as one that postulates a process P that contains a model M of its outcome, such that P's behaviour is adaptive towards achieving M despite perturbations from the environment.

...but I'm not sure what you mean by 'perturbations' in relation to the evolution of thermodynamic systems. Surely any perturbations will be subject to the laws of thermodynamics too? If they originate with the system, so the system is self-perturbing, anything that results in a lowering of entropy in one region will be more than compensated for by an increase elsewhere - and if the perturbations come from outside the system, then the second law doesn't hold because it only applies to closed systems.
 

waffle

Banned
Two recent blog posts on the two issues addressed in this thread:

Firstly, on Dawkin's 'temptations of teleology' from K-punk.

What's wrong with teleological descriptions?

That question was already addressed in previous posts above, 3 BNP. I detect an acute bout of short-term memory loss/anterograde amnesia hereabouts. That, combined with Mr T's delirial, hostile verbal abuse circuit and egomania makes for quite a performative spectacle.

The Temptations of Teleology

Watching the third part of Richard Dawkins' recent series The Genius Of Darwin, I was struck not by the now familiar phenomenon of Dawkins's libidinal attachment to his adversaries, even though this was in evidence again (why devote a whole third of the series to knocking down Darwin's opponents, when he's already destroyed them numerous times?). No: what was most disconcerting was the final sequence in which Dawkins met with Daniel Dennett. Here, the claim was that, not only had evolution undermined the teleological argument for the existence of God, but that it had revealed a nature which was in many ways the equivalent of a divine designer. Evolution showed a natural world rich in complexity and diversity, and a contemplation of this should be enough to satisfy anyone's spiritual needs: what more could they (religious believers) want, Dawkins scoffed.

Part of the problem here is the one which Zizek touches upon in his occasional remarks on contemporary Darwininianism: why is that that the advocates of a punitively mechanistic theory like Darwininian evolution end up using teleological language? This is partly a consequence of the concept of "natural selection" being (rhetorically) converted from a negative into a positive thesis. The original negative idea was that brutal, blind randomness can account for the appearance of purpose in organisms; there is no need to hypothesise any guiding intelligence at work in nature, since only those organisms that happen to be adapted to their environment will survive and prosper. If this seems like a statement of the screamingly obvious, it is worth reiterating because it is too often obscured, not by religious thinkers distorting evolutionary theory, but by Darwininans themselves, who, it seems, have a tendency to be seduced by their own metaphors. 'Natural selection' was itself something of a reification, which was always in danger of implying that there was an intentional agent doing the selecting. Dawkins' own famous images - the blind watchmaker, the selfish gene - both imply some degree of purposive intent (the emphasis in the blind watchmaker ought to have been on the blindness rather than the watchmaking; the gene has neither a self nor interests which it pursues, only an idiotic program which it follows).

Unfortunately, the positivisation of the idea of natural selection isn't merely a rhetorical error, but something that has had theoretical consequences. Witness, for instance, the most ludicrous claims of evolutionary psychology, which maintain that practically every human behaviour can be accounted for in terms of a natural selection held to operate like some ultra-efficient teleological sorting system, ensuring that every single trait serves some evolutionary function. What is lost here in is the randomness of the process - needless to say, traits can persist even if they have no positive function, provided there is no selection pressure against them.

In his insistence that evolution had not destroyed Meaning but, on the contrary, guaranteed it, Dawkins struck me as precisely the sort of person that was the real target of Nietzsche's "Parable Of The Madman": not the religious believers, who are perfectly aware of the traumatic implications of the death of God, but "those who did not believe in God" who stand around and laugh when the madman brings his bad news. The Creatonists' horror and abomination in the face of evolution seems more in keeping with its mechaninistic nihilism than Dawkins's cheery insouciance, his suggestion that things can go on pretty much the same after Darwin as before.

Secondly, on that advert for 'the postmodern superego' from Savonarola:

The Atheism of Fools, or, There is Certainly No God: Now Start Worrying and Change Your Life

Just when you thought Badiou was over-egging the dialectical pudding with all his talk of "democratic materialism" ("there are only bodies and languages"), this: "a reassuring god-free advert". In the midst of economic crisis, imperialist wars, catastrophic inequality, et caetera, the "brights" and "secularists" now see it fit to besmirch the fine tradition of godlessness by pimping for conformity, low-intensity hedonism and a truly unbearable lightness of being.

Faced with this capitulation to a smug petty-bourgeois ethos, any self-respecting atheist would rather keep company with the ravers, enthusiasts and fanatics. Or the more tragic amongst our lot. They might provide us with less "reassuring" words:

Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived. Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it. Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it.
- The Book of Job

"I shit on God, if he does not do my bidding."
- Thomas Müntzer (as reported by Melanchton)

"If God is dead, everything is permitted." (Dostoyevsky) / "If there is no God, nothing is permitted." (Lacan)

Or perhaps something slightly more poetic and invigorating from Bataille:

"Revolt - its faced distorted by amorous ecstasy - tears from God his naive mask, and this oppression collapses in the crash of time. Catastrophe is that by which a nocturnal horizon is set ablaze, that for which lacerated existence goes into a trance - it is the Revolution - it is time released from all bonds; it is pure change; it is a skeleton that emerges from its cadaver as from a cocoon and that sadistically lives the unreal existence of death" (from 'Sacrifices').

Probably won't fit on the side of a bus, but it has a better chance of proselytising for the persistence of the negative than this finitude-mongering campaign.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
That question was already addressed in previous posts above, 3 BNP. I detect an acute bout of short-term memory loss/anterograde amnesia hereabouts. That, combined with Mr T's delirial, hostile verbal abuse circuit and egomania makes for quite a performative spectacle.

Good to have you back, lifetimes. :D
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Yeah, 'cause none of these things have anything to do with religion, right?
And also because "enjoying your life" automatically implies "conformity and low intensity hedonism"?

But hey, let's not think too hard about what people actually said if there's an argument to be made based on what we want them to have said.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
So, Waffle, are we to take your refusal to acknowledge your proven misrepresentation of Dawkins' arguments as a tacit (if ungracious) admission of your error? Assuming this to be the case, what are the consequences for your arguments about the faith position of Dawkins that seemed to be predicated upon this error?
 

waffle

Banned
So, Waffle, are we to take your refusal to acknowledge your proven misrepresentation of Dawkins' arguments as a tacit (if ungracious) admission of your error?

There is no 'misrepresentation'; there is only your stupifying inability to comprehend the arguments being made.


Assuming this to be the case, what are the consequences for your arguments about the faith position of Dawkins that seemed to be predicated upon this error? ... [] ... in a thought experiment I can invent my own society can't I?

You reside in an imaginary world of counterfactuals ("What if I were to imagine he's in error? Then he'd be in error, wouldn't he? Therefore he's 'obviously' in error!").

[sigh/gasp]

Maybe you might also like to imagine yourself to be, like Dawkins, a Ceiling Cat?

Awgooments For Ceiling Cat

Thees awgooments ar in ur computer, teechin ur mind bout teh Ceiling Cat. They ar gud.

Felinopik Prinsipul
Teh howse is jus riet for us kittehs. Is not too cowd or too hot. Is jus niec an warm an cuddlee. Teh hoomins gif us fud wen we ask an scrach us wen we mew cyoot. We gets to slepe anywhar an teh hoomins even gif us warm piels of cleen close to lay on. How awesoem!

If Ceiling Cat dint ecksist how cud all of dis happun? If teh howse wus too cowd we wud be ded kittehs wif ice! If teh howse wus too hot we wud be ded kittehs wif crispees! If hoomins not der to feed us we wud be reely skinneh and ded kittehs. If Ceiling Cat dint maek hoomins for us sleepin anywhar wud not be fun! An no cleen close to slepe on!

Evewythin in howse is riet for kitteh and dat is how we kno Ceiling Cat is reel, srsly.

Aistetic Prinsipul
We aes lolcats cann appweshiate teh fien tings in leif. We luvs teh cheesburgerz an we luv it wen we haev a neic waerm bed to slepe in. Ceiling Cat maed evewyting so pwetty an tuld us tat it wer pwetty. Dat is wai Ceiling Cat is so orsum an wae luv teh Ceiling Cat.srsly

Fiwst Cawse (Cawsmolawgicle Awgooment)
Evewythin need a cawse, cuz, um, dat is how it is. We mew an hoomins gif us fud. Hoomins go in noysy box an go awayz an dey com bak wif fud. Dis is cawse an effekt. Who gifs teh hoomins fud? Oder hoomins cant gif hoomins fud so Ceiling Cat mus be givin dem fud for us and dem. See, Ceiling Cat bless teh hoomins wif fud for feedin us, how niec of Ceiling Cat! Hoomins must be pettin him awl teh tiem!

Ceiling Cat maed teh fiwst mew, an he maed fud for awl hoomins and kittehs. Der be no utta way to maek fud, srsly. So Ceiling Cat stawteded it awl!

Telljunt Dezynr
Can says "Oh Hai"? Liek who maik teh littrboxz? Liek who putin niec smelly new littr? Sum catz, riet? Nawt jus anny catz, riet? Reeeeeel smarty catz, meeee-oooowww! Can has rubs bellie? Nawt jus anny catz, riet? Niec rubs can has Ceiling Cat. Ceiling Cat has niec littrboxz first anna clumpy littr. Tehn youse catz can has one. Youse skratch, youse sqwat, den youse pee, den youse cover. Niec skratch.

Oh Hai, lookey here! Nawt jus anny littr clump. Who can has maded this niec clumpy pee? Nawt jus anny catz, riet? Must be reeeeel smarty catz, riet? See? Lookey? Sniffz. Clumpz. Taht splanes it. Ceiling Cat teh Telljunt Dezynr uv reel niec clumpy pee. Ceiling Cat sez so. Srsly. K'Thnxbai.

Awgooments not for Ceiling Cat

Awgooment from No Has Cheezburger
If Ceiling Cat wuz reel, He iz gud kitteh nd haz teh powerz to pwn evrywun. But if Ceiling Cat wuz gud kitteh, then He wants all teh kittehs to haz cheezburger. Nd if Ceiling Cat has powerz to pwn evrywun, He haz powerz tu gives all teh kittehs cheezburger. But sum kittehs no has cheezburger. :'( So Ceiling Cat iz not reel.

(Sum n00bs say this iz becoz Ceiling Cat gived us Free Will, and teh reel reason some kittehs no has cheezburger is becoz other kittehs yuze Free Willz tu steel cheezburger and eaten it--not Ceiling Cat's fawlt! But this splaination not plausibling: everycat knowz that cheezburger iz better than Free Will. Sum saiz dat Free Will maeks sum kittehs not wantz Ceiling Cat, an dey livz in teh toylut bowl cuz dey refwse beelevin in Ceiling Cat. Not Ceiling Cat's fawlt! kthxbye)

Awgooments frum Eevul in teh Urfs
He, liek, nevr duz anyfing. An der iz lots ov bad fings in wurldz. Liek, I wuz in teh best warm spot on teh rug, but den it moovd, an Iz cood not be in it anymoar. WAI, CEILING CAT, WAI??? WAI YU SO CROOL??? So, him not exist. An teh Ceiling Cat sed tu kill teh Jews, but wez not ded yet! LOLZ! Yu looz!

Natrullistick Fallissey
Wen ceiling cat sez that stuf is gud ther is problum cuz yu cant sey yu ort to do sumthing logickly just cuz of wot it iz, srsly. Yu mite wnt to cuz yu mite get cheezburger but thatz not logickl or morul. So ceiling cat iz silly an Iz not lisning. STFU n00b or I will pwn yu cus therz no morulz.

Teh Yewtheefro Dielemmer
How do we kno ceiling cat iz good? He miet be lyin. He sez he iz gud but sum stuf seems harsh. If evrythin he sez iz gud iz gud thn gudnes is arbitrerry. but if hez gud ackordin to a hier ideeul then he iz not tha ultimut, srsly. liek ceiling cat sez taht gays is rong an gurl kittehs shud serv therr boy kittehs, but lots of kittehs tinkin taht is rong. So we iz knowin wot iz riet withowt ceiling cat, so no need for ceiling cat.

Miriclez is Hapnin Sumtimes
If ceiling cat iz doin teh miricles tehn wy is he only doin it sumtimes? liek why is he savin teh Jew kittehs from teh prissy egypt kittehs but not from teh hairy jermun kittehs? ceiling cat iz eethaa not reel or iz stoopid.

Teh Powerz Contradichun
If Ceiling Cat is havvin teh powerz to does anythun and also if Cat can srsly know abouts evrythun that is abouts to happun then leik howz is possupple? If Ceiling is knowun wat Cieling Cat is about to does how can he has powerz to change sumfin he knows gon happen?

kthxbai.

Infinit Wegeshun
Look around an see niec stuff liek kitteh an hooman an cheezburger an iz so niec mus be maded by reeeel smarty catz. But who can has maded smarty catz? Mus be reeeeel reeeeeel smarty catz. Srsly. But who can has maded reeeeel reeeeeel smarty catz? Dis jus give smarty catz maded smarty catz for eva an iz, liek, stoopid.

Insted, can has evolution. Evolution is, liek, oh hai? u wants cheezburger u wait. Srsly. Iz gotta start simpul an bild an bild an bild til I can has reeel complex stuff. Even cheezburger. Evolution no can has kitteh littrboxz so need moar luck, but anthropic prinshipul say can has stuff even reeel smarty catz not imagin. Srsly. So no need Ceiling Cat.

Reely beeg roks
Ceiling Cat cans do anyfink, but cans he make a roks so big that evn He cans not lift eet?!?!?!?!

If he cans not maik it, he cans not do evrythink, but if he cans, and then he cans not lift eet, he still cans not do evryfings!?!?!?! Oh noes!

So Ceiling Cat cans not be doing everythink, so He iz not bein reel.
 
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