Fascism!

[josef k.]

I still know nothing about Badiou and probably disagree with lots of what he says but I don't think he's a fascist.

I think it is important that the word "fascist" is detached from the signifier "evil" - which is the most common way in which it is today understood. There are forms of micro-fascism trafficking under all kinds of names, including the name "communism." The truth lies in the pattern of organization, and the stance on the world which is encouraged.

I still continue to believe that the essence of fascism = "my struggle"

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

At least a third of this is definitely true.

you know what I mean tho.

 

[massrock]

I lived in the U.S. at that time, and sure, there was some heightened rhetoric on the part of politicians about nuclear war. That was something that the WWII generation--all of those guys who fought against fascist armies for the sake of the rest of us--might have taken seriously. But beyond that, nobody here really gave a fuck about "communists"--not communists within in the U.S., not communists outside of the U.S. They were considered kind of outmoded and old fashioned already at that point.

How old were you in the early 80s and what sort of political attitudes did you grow up around?

I think you might be misjudging the level of fear and paranoia abroad at the time but maybe not, I wasn't in the US.

I don't think it matters if communism was considered outmoded or old fashioned, it was maintained that communism was dangerous until the collapse of the Soviet Union was a fait accompli. Those attitudes, fears and propaganda of the WWII generation and the boomers in positions of power prevailed for the most part I would say.

 

[massrock]

There are forms of micro-fascism trafficking under all kinds of names, including the name "communism." The truth lies in the pattern of organization, and the stance on the world which is encouraged.

Aye, fair enough.

 

[massrock]

Don't think anyone doubts it was crap in the Soviet Union or that ex-residents are some of its most vociferous critics!

 

[josef k.]

There is a bad dialectic about that: one party says: "Communism was murderous" the other party says: "Communism was a beautiful dream/betrayed by Stalin/contained some good points/etc." Not mich progress is made.

 

[nomadthethird]

I think you're missing my point, Massrock.

Not many people were scared of communism as such in the 80s, at least, nowhere I ever witnessed. In the main, those who were scared had a fear of impending nuclear winter, which they were convinced might be a potential result of the political unrest and economic problems in Eastern Europe at the time. The Regan administration especially made a HUGE deal about Russia's nuclear capability, in part because nobody was scared of communism anymore. It was a way of keeping the "conflicts" between the U.S. and its enemies fresh in the public's mind after people had long forgotten about ideological battles.

After Vietnam, the rhetoric about communism itself being a threat died down quite a bit. People stopped buying it. It no longer rang true to your average U.S. citizen that communism taking over a third world government was going to directly affect Americans, to the point where American lives needed to be lost to fight the spread of communism. It took a horrible failure of a war to drive that point home, but Americans finally realized they'd been had, and it made more sense to let those nations implode on their own while lending them money and trading with them.

It shows that you're not from the U.S.; you seem to have a very media-hysterical view of what people in the U.S. actually think and feel. Time Magazine isn't always the best barometer of what's going on here, believe it or not. Nor is TV news always the best representative of Americans-at-large.

People here consider Cuba another great vacation spot, ffs. It's considered cute and romantic to go see all those places the mobsters used to hang out when Batista was still dictating.

 

[nomadthethird]

Always amazes me the fantasy Europeans have of what Americans are like. First, Americans are not a homogeneous group, not on *any* conceivable level. There are rural/local pockets of ethnically homogeneous populations, but even within those there is only heterogenous cultural backgrounds and political persuasions. There are some general trends, such as Northerners and Californians/PNWers are more liberal than the rest of the country. But even those aren't rules, they're just trends. And they change on a moment's notice, as we saw in the last election.

The problem with Americans is not that they care a whole bunch about "revolutionary" politics--it's that they don't care in the least. Most kids today probably don't even know there *was* a Berlin Wall. If they did, it would be entirely meaningless to them. People here for the most part lead very comfortable lives. They have no reason to question their own ideologies. That ends up being a problem, because many people are sheltered from knowledge of how most of the world lives.

There are actually tons of far left people in the U.S. All kinds of them. They are pretty damn vocal, too, and were especially in the 90s. Funnily enough, the U.S. has been on the "vanguard" of many equal rights movements--feminism, civil rights, gay rights, etc. (Of course, all of that is just "traitor" "liberal" bullshit...)

 

[josef k.]

Speaking as a mutant, I prefer the USA to the UK.

 

[nomadthethird]

As a mutant, I prefer Canada.

Those attitudes, fears and propaganda of the WWII generation and the boomers in positions of power prevailed for the most part I would say.

Prevailed where? Across the country, or just in the media and the realm of high ranking government officials? There's a difference, you know.

 

[mistadubalina]

so is america a fascist state ?

 

[scottdisco]

Always amazes me the fantasy Europeans have of what Americans are like.

the point i am about to make is a side-issue and irrelevant to the main thread and has nothing to do with any poster here, but i really like what Nomad says here. my own experiences are, of course, my own, and so very anecdotal and partial, but i have spent a long time living in the USA, and quite a long time bumming around a good deal of her territory, and - whether on the European mainland or back in my native Britain or Ireland - have very frequently encountered the sorts of attitudes from my fellow Europeans to the Yanks that Nomad mentions.
it's a two-way street of course, and some septic fuckwits have got my back up in the past with things, but in general the average relatively (or even totally) ignorant American - in my very partial, limited experience - has been far more respectful to my side of the pond than vice-versa.

(i know of other friends in my boat who would say the same. eg i remember a conversation with a mate who works nonstop and was real excited to take himself around Boston, NYC, and Albany for three weeks on public transport for a much needed holiday and his impeccably social-liberal Guardian reading co-worker back here in England really rained on his parade before with some very mean-spirited sweeping generalisations about the States and Yanks.)

i am sure this will not surprise anybody here, but just saying, like.

anyway, having spent about five beguiling weeks once getting from Montreal to Vancouver, i'm with Nomad on the lovely Canada tip

 

[scottdisco]

on topic

“In Odinism the God Odin is crucified like Christ to a tree. Unlike Christ whose redemption is found only after his death, Odin SURVIVES his torment on the tree and gains the wisdom of the Runes and thereby unlocks the secrets of the universe …The roots represent our descent from the Gods and our connection to the Earth, the trunk represents our shared European racial heritage, the main branches of the tree our nations and tribes…

Is the BNP Christian?

"shared European racial heritage" (piece from last summer by Lee Barnes, a BNP top boy and their legal brain)

The 'new' BNP is still the Nazi BNP - piece from last December (edit: excellent comment from somebody that gets to the heart of the matter though, saying throwing Nazi around is no use, given the increasing sophistication of the BNP, aping other European far-right parties, but link stays as the musical details are just so enjoyably barmy)

i'll get on that list Oliver.

 

[...]

Great link, Scottie.

Are Prussian Blue still around then? I got the impression that they'd grown up and realised that their mother is both barking mad and sinister and stopped making music.

 

[massrock]

Prevailed where? Across the country, or just in the media and the realm of high ranking government officials? There's a difference, you know.

No I know what you were saying - but don't tell me that the media isn't and wasn't powerful in forming attitudes. And yes most people may not have been immediately worried about communism so much as nuclear war but I would still say that the general attitude to someone declaring themselves to be a communist would have a been a hostile one from many, many American residents, whether this be justified, ill-informed or whatever.

'Always amazes me...' Yeah I'm sure it does.

And really, how old were you in the early 80s - were you seriously of a politically concious age? Nonsense, you were barely born.

 

[massrock]

(i know of other friends in my boat who would say the same. eg i remember a conversation with a mate who works nonstop and was real excited to take himself around Boston, NYC, and Albany for three weeks on public transport for a much needed holiday and his impeccably social-liberal Guardian reading co-worker back here in England really rained on his parade before with some very mean-spirited sweeping generalisations about the States and Yanks.)

Maybe so scott but I have my own anecdotal experience of America and Americans and in any case I am speaking more of what I know of general attitudes at the time rather than the place, and not about those amongst groups of far left thinkers.

 

[massrock]

I mean British lefties would have on the whole been well wary of talking up or identifying with communism at the time, still are of course.

Maybe it was less controversial to be an out commie in 80s America but I seriously doubt it. Is that a fantasy?

 

[massrock]

Right, well I suppose you couldn't join the John Birch Society or be an economic advisor to the govt or become an investment banker.

Actually I don't imagine it would be much of an impediment to being an investment banker, as long you were 'good'.

But I mean prejudice in a slightly more literal sense. Whatever, maybe as you suggest it's a nice safe path to take which doesn't entail meeting lots of massively unfavourable associations.

But obviously there's risks and there's risks.

 

[scottdisco]

Great link, Scottie.

Are Prussian Blue still around then? I got the impression that they'd grown up and realised that their mother is both barking mad and sinister and stopped making music.

cheers Ollie.
i don't know the answer to your question myself but i too would love to find out!

Maybe so scott but I have my own anecdotal experience of America and Americans and in any case I am speaking more of what I know of general attitudes at the time rather than the place, and not about those amongst groups of far left thinkers.

indeed.
my own very partial and personal anecdotes, as i said: of no relevance.

i applaud your line of enquiry and know what you mean.

in addition to this, i'd be interested in hearing about the attitudes fostered toward democratic societies in, say, the early 1980s, from the state media of Iron Curtain countries at the time.
it'd be especially fascinating to look at a freer country close to a Bloc country and see, given pollination, if, say, Switzerland was regarded with slightly less dismay among people, than a somewhat more distant country: Portugal for instance.

 

[...]

I would move to Switzerland like a shot.