padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
good letter. nice to see someone challenging the nuum rather than just accept it as conventional (tyrannical?) wisdom.

Oh come one. Who just accepts the nuum as "tyrannical" wisdom these days? If anything I see people (by which I mean journos and music nerds on the internet e.g. dissensus e.g. the only people who give a shit about things like the "nuum" anyway) griping about it constantly. I understand Muggs writing about a specific review of specific album but in a more general sense perhaps if you don't like the theory you should just ignore it. it's not as if Reynolds is some kind of éminence grise who's secretly directing everyone to write off all UK bass music that doesn't fit into one nuum permutation.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Hear, hear to the whole letter. I thought the following bit especially captured something important:
"But in the hands of a self-appointed
bloggerati (‘’Nuum Generals’, perhaps?) it
has become a purist, even essentialist faith
which confers validity and worthiness for
analysis on music only if it can be shown to
have some connection to tower blocks in
particular London postcodes and wears a
metaphorical ‘screw-face’"
Whilst it's perhaps unfair to suggest that a great number of people take it that far, certainly one of things that bothers me about the 'nuum idea is the way it seems to slip, without justification or explanation, from being a fact-term to being a value-term. Thus, styles which can be connected sonically and/or socially to the continuum get a sort of instant kudos (and guaranteed coverage) just for 'keeping the faith', whereas more disparate scenes have a mountain to climb just to gain attention. But perhaps that is beginning to change.

where is this bias though? who are the blogs/publications/writers, the "Nuum Generals" or "self-appointed bloggerati" (nice touch, that, everyone hates self-appointed gatekeepers), who only favor music which can be connected to the nuum? what is this "mountain" that more "disparate" scenes have to climb? I call bullshit on that whole concept, though I'd be happy to be proven wrong if anyone can explain in anything more than the vaguest terms this conspiracy of purist soulboy bloggerati types with their immense power to deny coverage to musics which don't fit into their London postcodes and screwfaces.
 

mos dan

fact music
where is this bias though? who are the blogs/publications/writers, the "Nuum Generals" or "self-appointed bloggerati" (nice touch, that, everyone hates self-appointed gatekeepers), who only favor music which can be connected to the nuum? what is this "mountain" that more "disparate" scenes have to climb? I call bullshit on that whole concept, though I'd be happy to be proven wrong if anyone can explain in anything more than the vaguest terms this conspiracy of purist soulboy bloggerati types with their immense power to deny coverage to musics which don't fit into their London postcodes and screwfaces.

good critique of the critique padraig. i agree with joe muggs in terms of the broad principles, but personally i think the idea of a 'self-appointed bloggerati' ignores the fact that many bloggers demur from the idea of the nuum. we at lower end spasm have done so repeatedly, i'm sure john eden and others have echoed this dissent too, wordthecat too.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
the 'nuum is a useful theory which has gained a fair bit of currency.

The difficulty for me is overly fundamentalist applications of the theory which are used to bolster people's pre-existing prejudices about musical evolution:

http://www.uncarved.org/blog/2008/01/rave-futures/

Perhaps the best example of this is K-Punk's use of the theory to both herald the arrival of funky and to dismiss Grime as yesterday's chip wrappers. Because, in 'nuum world, a new development always replaces the previous one.

Unfortunately that article is no longer on the FACT magazine site. Far be it for me to speculate as to why... :slanted:

It is good to see some discussion about it all anyway - perhaps this can be developed at the Reynolds/K-Punk discussion in Liverpool which is coming up.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
...The difficulty for me is overly fundamentalist applications of the theory which are used to bolster people's pre-existing prejudices about musical evolution:

...Perhaps the best example of this is K-Punk's use of the theory to both herald the arrival of funky and to dismiss Grime as yesterday's chip wrappers. Because, in 'nuum world, a new development always replaces the previous one.

Now that is a critique I can agree with, especially the point about the idea of continual development being used to justify an "out with the old, in with the new" mentality. I hardly think that's limited to UK bass music (or nuum-related musics, if I might), though. Isn't dance music in general always searching for the next big thing, the next Year Zero? In fact much of the criticism of minimal has been along the lines that, chugging along at an agreeable pace as it does, it's kind of the antithesis of paradigm-shifting Year Zeros.

And clearly the theory has been misapplied and used in ways which restrict rather than enhance discussion. That's of course unfortunate. I would say though that any theory, esp. one which gains a measure of credibility or influence, is bound to be misused and twisted to serve ends which it was never intended to.

As has been said many times, the ardkore nuum applies to music with specific geography (London), sonics (dread bass/breakbeats/feminine pressure/mcs), timeline (post Acid House/sample-based hip hop) and culture (black & white kids* mixing in London). Outside of that, it's another continuum; the Kraut nuum, the Detroit nuum, the gamelan nuum, the Tuvan throat-singing nuum. The theory itself is more about the nuum part than the ardkore part.

*some Asian kids too but as far as the ardkore nuum mostly black/white
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
As has been said many times, the ardkore nuum applies to music with specific geography (London), sonics (dread bass/breakbeats/feminine pressure/mcs), timeline (post Acid House/sample-based hip hop) and culture (black & white kids* mixing in London).

*some Asian kids too but as far as the ardkore nuum mostly black/white

each of those key features has been critiqued to fuck and found wanting over the years...

it IS a wicked turn of phrase though.
 

mms

sometimes
well the other thing i see is that dubstep fr instance seems to have been left out because it's not particulary what some people are looking for in their numm', musically it's not to their taste, so it's dismissed out hand, same with the wonky stuff even though for me it throws down some interesting challenges to genres
 
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Tentative Andy

I'm in the Meal Deal
where is this bias though? who are the blogs/publications/writers, the "Nuum Generals" or "self-appointed bloggerati" (nice touch, that, everyone hates self-appointed gatekeepers), who only favor music which can be connected to the nuum? what is this "mountain" that more "disparate" scenes have to climb? I call bullshit on that whole concept, though I'd be happy to be proven wrong if anyone can explain in anything more than the vaguest terms this conspiracy of purist soulboy bloggerati types with their immense power to deny coverage to musics which don't fit into their London postcodes and screwfaces.

Fair enough, you were right to call me out on this. I fell into the whole weasel-worded approach, that lazy 'some people say' style. However, I'm honestly not sure how far I want to go into naming names, as it was most likely end up appearing I was picking fights with other people on the board, which is not at all what I want. I think it's fair to say, though, that Simon Reynolds and Mark Fisher are notable and habitual offenders when it comes to this [cf. john eden's response upthread]. And clearly the are people with a good deal of status and influence in British music journalism, from the printed mags across on-line publications to the blogosphere.
Having said that, I wouldn't like to give the impression that I believe there's some kind of 'conspiracy' going on to guarantee coverage focuses on the London scenes alone (though I do think there are unfortunate parallels opening up with the whole soulboy thang, but that's not something I'm thought out properly yet, so it will need another time/another post.) It's less to do any machinations on the part of specific individuals, than to do with a general cultural climate which people adsorbe subconsciously. Compare the length of the bassline thread here, say, to the length of the grime and funky threads. It seems to be the general, unarticulated assumption that the next exciting thing will always come from London, and can be assesed/judged by it's links back to ardcore.
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
well the other thing i see is that dubstep fr instance seems to have been left out because it's not particulary what some people are looking for in their numm', musically it;s not to their taste, same with the wonky stuff even though for me it throws down some interesting challenges to genres

well of course- it ignored loads of stuff from the very beginning in order to make it 'a theory' that can be discussed in academia in self important tones, sucking up all that cultural capital ;).

it still works as an historical shorthand term used by 30+ year old men down the pub/ on the internet, but its predictive power is shit.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
...Simon Reynolds and Mark Fisher are notable and habitual offenders when it comes to this..clearly they are people with a good deal of status and influence in British music journalism...
...I wouldn't like to give the impression that I believe there's some kind of 'conspiracy' going on to guarantee coverage focuses on the London scenes alone (though I do think there are unfortunate parallels opening up with the whole soulboy thang, but that's not something I'm thought out properly yet, so it will need another time/another post.) It's less to do any machinations on the part of specific individuals, than to do with a general cultural climate which people adsorbe subconsciously...It seems to be the general, unarticulated assumption that the next exciting thing will always come from London, and can be assesed/judged by it's links back to ardcore.

well I'm not British (American, but Irish on both sides, so all you limey mucks can take the 800 yrs and shove it:)) so I can't speak to that on the street/subconscious permeations of culture bit. however, is that really unique to the U.K. and London? The States are too spread to have anything like London but we still that syndrome w/NYC somewhat, esp. for rap (bringing NYC back and so on) and indie rock (Brooklyn). Berlin as world techno capital. I think it's only natural to expect innovations to come from one of the largest most multicultural cities at the world, if not the expense of ignoring music from outside the city. Plus SR is forever jabbering on about his love Sheffield bleeps & bass, no?

I agree there's problem some soulboyism going on. that's what happens; critics who write about youth cultures get older, begin to lose their edge. we all get nostalgic about that road to Damascus moment.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
each of those key features has been critiqued to fuck and found wanting over the years...

it IS a wicked turn of phrase though.

well, sure. everything that enough people pay attention to eventually gets critiqued and found wanting.

well the other thing i see is that dubstep fr instance seems to have been left out because it's not particulary what some people are looking for in their numm', musically it's not to their taste, so it's dismissed out hand, same with the wonky stuff even though for me it throws down some interesting challenges to genres

I dunno about that. w/some who might be considered nuum advocates, sure, but as Mos Dan said there's almost always a diversity of opinion.

another point is that a lot of producers now are receiving claim from places outside of the rave "old guard". the more techno-ish end of dubstep has pretty well crossed over into minimal & deep/dub techno. the wonky guys are getting love from just about everywhere. Phillip Sherburne, who I'd consider a pretty influential writer but who could hardly be considered a nuum guy, had a year end list filled with Skull Disco, Zomby, Rustie, Flying Lotus and so on mixed with all the stuff you'd expect. London Zoo showed up on a ton of yr end lists and Margins Music on a few as well. Zomby just did a (pretty good) mix of '92-'93 ardkore for some fashion magazine website. and so on.
 

Blackdown

nexKeysound
this all brings into focus for me the fact that right now there are interesting things going on at the centres and the edges of various movements. to choose to look at just one rather than both and you're only getting half the picture.
 

mos dan

fact music
this all brings into focus for me the fact that right now there are interesting things going on at the centres and the edges of various movements. to choose to look at just one rather than both and you're only getting half the picture.

v well put! i also think it's great that the edges remain, um, frayed. if that makes any sense: yknow, loose and messy.
 

psherburne

Well-known member
Where has Skream mentioned the "mongrel music" tag? It's perhaps a bit general to catch on with respect to this current flowering (what nascent genre ISN'T a mongrel music, after all?) but it does have a nice ring to it... As I (think I've) said elsewhere, I really like the way that many of the artists involved in this scene (or non-scene) are taking active responsibility for its nomenclature, even if terms like "aquacrunk" are intended first and foremost as feints, tactics to forestall the imposition of an "official" term.
 

Tentative Andy

I'm in the Meal Deal
well I'm not British (American, but Irish on both sides, so all you limey mucks can take the 800 yrs and shove it:)) so I can't speak to that on the street/subconscious permeations of culture bit. however, is that really unique to the U.K. and London? The States are too spread to have anything like London but we still that syndrome w/NYC somewhat, esp. for rap (bringing NYC back and so on) and indie rock (Brooklyn). Berlin as world techno capital. I think it's only natural to expect innovations to come from one of the largest most multicultural cities at the world, if not the expense of ignoring music from outside the city. Plus SR is forever jabbering on about his love Sheffield bleeps & bass, no?

I agree there's problem some soulboyism going on. that's what happens; critics who write about youth cultures get older, begin to lose their edge. we all get nostalgic about that road to Damascus moment.

Yeah - it would seem, as is often the case with these things, that we actually pretty much agree with each other, we've just been emphasising different things. Obv you're right about the capital/metropolis bias being natural and inevitable to an extent, but I still think it's always worth fighting against, if for nothing else than what appeals to me in rave music is the democratic, anyone-can-do-it aspect. Would hate to see that replaced by a sort of 'keeping it all in the family' vibe.
Going to try and restrain myself from posting about the whole continuum debate anymore (at least for the foreseeable future ;) ), because (a) I've exhausted any worthwhile insights I might have on it and (b) I feel I have come over too much as trying to tear Reynolds to shreads, which misrepresents the fact that I respect him a great deal as a writer and find Energy Flash a totally inspiring book, wouldn't be bothered sitting here debating these things if it wasn't for it.
 

elgato

I just dont know
this is not so much directly related to Joe Muggs' letter, but more general

its not that there are so obviously or explicitly bloggers who practice this stuff, but its about prevailing analytical trends or assumptions... what is valued, and why, and how. and most of all how it is all understood and interpreted

i don't see enough analytical writing or thought that goes to a next level and questions why we value any of these things, why we are excited or stimulated by them - why we think about music in terms of genealogy, and whether there are other and new ways to understand and think about it.

if an analytical approach to music writing is going to stay creative and continue to bring value it needs people taking things to different places, and finding new ways to think and write about it. and i do think the continuum theory is to blame to some extent (although for me Reynolds, at least the old Reynolds, doesn't deserve any), because it provides an easy-to-fit framework to apportion and understand the value we place on things, and certainly has imposed or rather given massive cultural currency to a prevailing analytical mode (genealogical)

its hard to avoid... i know that having read Reynolds' work that his approaches and values permeate the way i hear things. me criticising the theory doesn't change that or make me exempt from my complaints... what does is if one re-assesses that, and finds a different way of thinking and expressing about the music

i do agree about perspective, cos we are talking about a fairly small audience or peer group. but i think its justified to criticise it when you feel there's an implicit straight jacket on thought and interpretation of dance music
 
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D

droid

Guest
and i do think the continuum theory is to blame to some extent (although for me Reynolds, at least the old Reynolds, doesn't deserve any), because it provides an easy-to-fit framework to apportion and understand the value we place on things, and certainly has imposed or rather given massive cultural currency to a prevailing analytical mode (genealogical)

I don't think this is accurate. The genalogical framework predates Reynolds' by decades and will continue long after the 'nuum is nothing but a faint memory. Rock is constantly looked at in terms of genealogy: blues>rocknroll>metal>punk>new wave etc... reggae too ska>rocksteady>reggae>dub>dancehall... this extends to art criticism as well.

You may be right in saying that the challenge is to find new methods of analysis, but I think the 'nuum is small fry when it comes to contributing or imposing to what is, by tradition, a dominant mode of analysis and criticism of music and art in general.
 

mos dan

fact music
I really like the way that many of the artists involved in this scene (or non-scene) are taking active responsibility for its nomenclature, even if terms like "aquacrunk" are intended first and foremost as feints, tactics to forestall the imposition of an "official" term.

i'd tweak this a bit so that the words 'weegie pisstake' are in there somewhere. you make it sound like they had a strategy meeting to plan this 'ish
 

mos dan

fact music
and the same goes for no-one else really buying my logic that zomby was taking the piss (at least a bit) with his 'where were you in 92' album. not everyone is as po-faced and serious as dissensus posters ;)
 
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