if New York can die so can London

[luka]

I didn't read the 21 pages either but sweeping generalizations about a city with eight million people, based on as little as one business closing doesn't sound wise. Places close, new ones open up, neighborhoods change, the past is the past. One wave of new people replaces another. Its the most basic part of urbanism. The worst kind of "death" a city can have is when people stop going there, when the well of human capital dries up.

Pollyanna?

 

[luka]

One thing I would like to suggest is that perhaps a) the afro-carribean influence over London has waned and b) that that community was really the engine for innovation in this city

 

[luka]

That's not to say that innovation can't possibly come from any other source just that there is a direct link from the soundsystem culture of '80s Lewisham, Hackney etc to jungle and all the things this board fetishises.

 

[sadmanbarty]

One thing I would like to suggest is that perhaps a) the afro-carribean influence over London has waned and b) that that community was really the engine for innovation in this city

I think demographic shifts within the afro-Caribbean community (those of African descent now out number those of Caribbean descent) are a big factor in this. Jamaican music has historically been more radical and paradigm shifting then the music coming out of Ghana and Nigeria. Bass fetishism, toasting and the centrality of reverb and delay are all, to varying extents, Jamaican imports.

http://www.voice-online.co.uk/article/2011-census-british-africans-now-dominant-black-group

 

[luka]

Just in case it's not clear afro-carribean doesn't mean Africans + Carribeans, it means Carribean of African descent

 

[sadmanbarty]

Just in case it's not clear afro-carribean doesn't mean Africans + Carribeans, it means Carribean of African descent

Didn't know that.

 

[trza]

I think the indigenous people of Brazil or the Caribbean have their musical influence overlooked. The people who write about music are obsessed with "Africa" as the dominating force of music, but when a bunch of Afro Caribbeans or Brazilians chant something that the missionaries taught to the indigenous people the casual journalists hears it as being "african" and thinks it makes everything more African because when you go looking for Africa you have a way of finding it.

And is this thread about Latin music, like Salsa or Fania stuff? Butter Pecan Ricans or Borquans?

 

[luka]

And is this thread about Latin music, like Salsa or Fania stuff? Butter Pecan Ricans or Borquansy

No its not cos Latin music is the worst music in the world.

 

[sadmanbarty]

I think the indigenous people of Brazil or the Caribbean have their musical influence overlooked. The people who write about music are obsessed with "Africa" as the dominating force of music, but when a bunch of Afro Caribbeans or Brazilians chant something that the missionaries taught to the indigenous people the casual journalists hears it as being "african" and thinks it makes everything more African because when you go looking for Africa you have a way of finding it.

And is this thread about Latin music, like Salsa or Fania stuff? Butter Pecan Ricans or Borquans?

Me and droid had a back and forth in the Music Pioneered in the 2010's thread about the extent to which latin tresillo rhythms influenced dancehall and, by extension, Jungle, grime, etc.

 

[CrowleyHead]

No its not cos Latin music is the worst music in the world.

*deletes Luka from the Internet* *places copy of Musical Mob - Salsa on his tombstone*

 

[luka]

People that are Always trying to have fun, all the fucking time. Give it a rest. Life's not one big fiesta you knoe

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

its cos the world, or western world, can only view things in terms of black and white. anything/anyone else is deemed insignificant in the discussion. plus as everyone knows, black people invented all music. ALL music. everything. every smart liberal person knows this.

 

[CrowleyHead]

People that are Always trying to have fun, all the fucking time. Give it a rest. Life's not one big fiesta you knoe

Did you also live over the apartment of someone blasting Daddy Yankee during reggaeton's peak? I would understand this pain but nah, to write off all latin music?

 

[luka]

Reggaeton didn't make it to England fortunately. It is my least favourite type of music though. I'm not ry cooder and I don't go to salsa classes

 

[Woebot]

One thing I would like to suggest is that perhaps a) the afro-carribean influence over London has waned and b) that that community was really the engine for innovation in this city

didn't you always say grime was african kids not west caribbean ones? serious question - not trolling.

 

[luka]

No, not exactly, but I think you were the first person I tested the theory out on. I said, cagily, that it represented the moment the African influence really made its presence felt for the first time and that that demographic shift was an important element in giving rise to grime

 

[sadmanbarty]

Which specific elements of Grime come across as African influenced?

To me the demographic shift becomes apparent in the attitude of UK Funky and Deep Tech. To my (limited) knowledge there isn't the glorification of Areaboys in Naijia like there is of Rudebwoys in Dancehall. Moreover, African Brits tend to be more socially mobile in outlook, with better school attainment levels and lower crime rates (?) then Caribbean-British people. As such the the badman attitude (which grime had plenty of) has been replaced with the 'classy', upwardly mobile vibe of UK Funky and Deep Tech. Of course a similar vibe can be found in 2step, which was before the demographic shifts, so I may well be wrong.

And while we're on the subject:

 

[luka]

You might be being a wee bit literal minded, and yer brush strokes might be a bit broad

 

[luka]

I mean I'm not trying to say there was some fucking 'tribal drumming' in grime, I mean it was actually made in part by first and second generation African immigrants and there was a turn towards America as an influence and while Jamaica was still obviously in the DNA I'd argue that it's star had waned somewhat

 

[trza]

i thought luka was trying to get me to share some fifteen youtube embed video history of latin music from nyc from the past to the present to the future but i am not fooled that easily nice try but no