War In Iran

shudder

Well-known member
Lots of people in lots of countries fly flags, maybe it happens in some states, but usually not in the Northeastern US.

Really? I've driven through a few upstate NY towns (sorry, couldn't name which ones, was stopping for gas, lunch, etc.) where there was a *very* high percentage of houses with US flags. (I'm aware that estimations of the relative frequency might be inflated by the salience of, say, noticing a bunch of houses in a row, but I was quite shocked at how many flags I saw).

NOT that flying one's flag is such an awful thing necessarily! And not that I hate americans (what a stupid thing to do! they gave us jazz!). This is obviously a silly tangent.

Back to the topic at hand:

obvi, there is no "west" and "east". In discussing current Middle East tensions, it's particularly important to stay away from generalizations about the "muslim world" etc. because such talk usually obscures just how complex the internal relationships and allegiances are between countries, sects, people in power, people in the streets, etc. As as alluded to before, just ask a few Iranians whether they liked being bunched together with Arabs to get some sense of it! (not that I'm really endorsing Iranian anti-Arabism!) Anyway, there are so many muslims who are *not* part of the middle east in Africa, Indonesia, etc... meh, I should stop reading all this and go to bed. now.
 
... NOT that flying one's flag is such an awful thing necessarily!

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Nationalism, that old precondition, rampant in the 20th century, for global colonialist multicultural capitalism ...


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Woops!
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Please, let us join your exclusive club ... but not on your colonial anti-nationalist terms - that just makes us real angry, though not as belligerent as you lot
 

bruno

est malade
you're confusing patriotism with nationalism. there is nothing wrong with liking the way you live and wanting others to know, this is patriotism and it's healthy. thinking that the way you live is the only way and wanting to impose it on others is nationalism. they're two separate things.
 
you're confusing patriotism with nationalism. there is nothing wrong with liking the way you live and wanting others to know

Oh right, liking the predatory military economy and wanting others to know :
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"PACIFIC OCEAN (June 18, 2006) -- USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN 72), USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63) and USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76) carrier strike groups steam in formation during a joint photo exercise (PHOTOEX) in preparation for Valiant Shield 2006. The PHOTOEX featured 14 ships as well as 17 aircraft from Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corp including a B2 bomber. The Kitty Hawk Carrier Strike Group is currently participating in Valiant Shield 2006, the largest joint exercise in recent history. Held in the Guam operating area (June 19-23), the exercise involves 28 Naval vessels including three carrier strike groups, more than 300 aircraft and more than 20,000 service members from the Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard. "​


...this is patriotism and it's healthy.

Samuel Johnson would so love to hear that ...


... thinking that the way you live is the only way and wanting to impose it on others is nationalism. they're two separate things.

Eh, bruno, you're confusing republicanism with colonialism, but both nationalisms are largely indistinguishable under the terms of the global late capitalism.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
wait, is patriotism the first or last resort of the scoundrel? which ever it is, I guess religion is the other one.
 

bruno

est malade
the last.

yes i would love an aircraft carrier, send one down here.

i don't see the crime in people finding a common identity around good things. if its not bellicose and it doesen't trample over other people's version of good what could possibly be wrong with this? so let them wave their flags! let them be proud of something!
 
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'Fisking' The West's Casual Racism

"If we were able to take as the finest allegory of simulation the Borges tale where the cartographers of the Empire draw up a map so detailed that it ends up exactly covering the territory (but where, with the decline of the Empire this map becomes frayed and finally ruined, a few shreds still discernible in the deserts - the metaphysical beauty of this ruined abstraction, bearing witness to an imperial pride and rotting like a carcass, returning to the substance of the soil, rather as an aging double ends up being confused with the real thing), this fable would then have come full circle for us, and now has nothing but the discrete charm of second-order simulacra ... Abstraction today is no longer that of the map, the double, the mirror or the concept. Simulation is no longer that of a territory, a referential being or a substance. It is the generation by models of a real without origin or reality: a hyperreal. The territory no longer precedes the map, nor survives it. Henceforth, it is the map that precedes the territory - precession of simulacra - it is the map that engenders the territory and if we were to revive the fable today, it would be the territory whose shreds are slowly rotting across the map. It is the real, and not the map, whose vestiges subsist here and there, in the deserts which are no longer those of the Empire, but our own. The desert of the real itself."==> Jean Baudrillard, Simulacra and Simulations



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[Time Magazine cover, March 12, 2007; Story: Behind the Sunni-Shi'ite Divide]


How easy it is to put hatred on a map

Our guilt in this sectarian game is obvious. We want to divide our potential enemies

By Robert Fisk

03/03/07 "The Independent"


Why are we trying to divide up the peoples of the Middle East? Why are we trying to chop them up, make them different, remind them - constantly, insidiously, viciously, cruelly - of their divisions, of their suspicions, of their capacity for mutual hatred? Is this just our casual racism? Or is there something darker in our Western souls?

Take the maps. Am I the only one sickened by our journalistic propensity to publish sectarian maps of the Middle East? You know what I mean. We are now all familiar with the colour-coded map of Iraq. Shias at the bottom (of course), Sunnis in their middle "triangle" - actually, it's more like an octagon (even a pentagon) - and the Kurds in the north.

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Or the map of Lebanon, where I live. Shias at the bottom (of course), Druze further north, Sunnis in Sidon and on the coastal strip south of Beirut, Shias in the southern suburbs of the capital, Sunnis and Christians in the city, Christian Maronites further north, Sunnis in Tripoli, more Shias to the east. How we love these maps. Hatred made easy.

Of course, it's not that simple. I live in a small Druze enclave in the west of Beirut. But my local grocer and my driver are Sunnis. I suppose they have no business to be in the wrong bit of our map. So do I tell my driver Abed that our map shows he can no longer park outside my home? Or that the Muslim publisher of the Arabic edition of my book The Great War for Civilisation can no longer meet me at our favourite rendezvous, Paul's restaurant in east Beirut, for lunch because our map shows this to be a Maronite Christian area of Beirut?

In Tarek al-Jdeidi (Sunni), some Shia families have moved out of their homes - temporarily, you understand, a brief holiday, keys left with the neighbours, it's always that way - which means that our Beirut maps are now cleaner, easier to understand. The same is happening on a far larger scale in Baghdad. Now our colour-coding can be bolder. No more use for that confusing word "mixed".

We did the same in the Balkans. The Drina Valley of Bosnia was Muslim until the Serbs "cleansed" it. Srebrenica? Delete "safe area" and logo it "Serb". Krajina? Serb until the Croats took it. Did we call them "Croats"? Or "Catholics"? Or both on our maps?

Our guilt in this sectarian game is obvious. We want to divide the "other", "them", our potential enemies, from each other, while we - we civilised Westerners with our refined, unified, multicultural values - are unassailable. I could draw you a sectarian map of Birmingham, for example - marked "Muslim" and "non-Muslim" (there not being many Christians left in England - but no newspaper would print it. I could draw an extremely accurate ethnic map of Washington, complete with front-line streets between "black" and "white" communities but The Washington Post would never publish such a map.

Imagine the coloured fun The New York Times could have with Brooklyn, Harlem, the East River, black, white, brown, Italian, Catholic, Jew, Wasp. Or the Toronto Globe and Mail with French and non-French Canadian Montreal (the front line at one point follows the city Metro) or with Toronto (where "Little Italy" is now Ukrainian or Greek), and colour the suburb of Mississauga green for Muslim, of course. But we don't draw these Hitlerian maps for our societies. It would be unforgivable, bad taste, something "we" don't do in our precious, carefully guarded civilisation.

Passing a book stall in New York this week, I spotted the iniquitous Time magazine and there on the cover - and this might truly have been a 1930s Nazi cover - were two cowled men, one in black, the other largely hidden by a chequered scarf. "Sunnis vs Shi'ites," the headline read. "Why they hate each other." This, naturally, was a "take-out" on Iraq's civil war - a civil war by the way, that America's spokesmen in Baghdad were talking about in August 2003 when not a single Iraqi in his worst nightmares dreamt of what has now come to pass.

Buy Time magazine, dear reader, turn to page 30, and what will you find? "How to Tell Sunnis and Shi'ites Apart." Helpful, uh? And after this, are columns of useful, divisive information. "Names," for example. "Some names carry sectarian markers... Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthman ... men with these names are almost certainly Sunni. Those called Abdel-Hussein and Abdel-Zahra," (I have never in met an "Abdel-Zahra" by the way) "are most likely Shi'ite." Then there are columns headed "Prayer", "Mosques", "Homes", "Accents" and "Dialects", even - heaven spare us - "cars". The last, for those readers not already reeling in disbelief, tells us which car stickers to look out for (spot a picture of Imam Ali and you know the driver is Shia) or which licence plate (Anbar province registrations, for instance) means a probable Sunni driver.

Thanks again. I don't know why the American military doesn't just buy up this week's edition of Time and drop the lot over Baghdad to help any still ignorant local murderers with easy-to-identify targets. But will Time be helping us to identify America's deeply divided society (who has most rubbish in their gardens in Washington, which bumper stickers to look for in Dearborn, Michigan)? Will they hell.

I, too, am guilty of playing these little sectarian games in the Middle East. I ask a Lebanese where he or she comes from, not to remember the mountains or rivers near their home but to code them into my map. But I easily come unstuck. The man who tells me he comes from the Lebanese south (Shia) turns out to live in the southern Druze town of Hasbaya. The woman who tells me she's from Jbeil (Christian) turns out to be from the town's Shia minority. Oh, if only these pesky minorities would go and live in the right bit of our imperial, sectarian maps.​

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And we go on talking to our Sunni monarchs in the Middle East - we listen to their raving about the "Shia crescent" - no wonder we hate Shia Iran so much. And we go on dividing and scissoring up the lands, and printing more and more of our racial maps and I do wonder most seriously if we wish to promote civil war across this part of the world, and you know what? I rather think we do.​
 

turtles

in the sea
Imagine the coloured fun The New York Times could have with Brooklyn, Harlem, the East River, black, white, brown, Italian, Catholic, Jew, Wasp.
This would be an opportune time to point out a google maps hack a friend of mine did a while back that overlays the 2000 US census bureau data over the google map for the US. Allowing you to do exactly as above, at least for white, black, asian and latino. Check it out. It's a touch slow, and sometimes you have to switch back to the normal map to figure out where you are...but still very good. also very good at pointing out prisons (small, intense populations of blacks), see here...
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
A couple of years back the Guardian did a full-page feature that was a map of London with enclaves of various nationalities marked out on it. I think a hundred or more countries/ethnic groups made the list, quite impressive. I saw it recently pinned up on the wall in my favourite Turkish bakery in Harringay (north London).
 

zhao

there are no accidents
yeah japan is real fuckin positive with dolphin being slaughtered like cattle and the Rape of NanKing still absent from history books...
 

bruno

est malade
and canada, clubbing cute seals!

japan has more than made up for its behaviour, i think. they have offered apologies countless times to china and it seems to fall on deaf ears. it never had a nüremberg, though, and it should have. i read the rape of nanking ages ago and found it a bit too emotional. can you recommend another source on the subject, zhao?

edit: i have just found out iris chang took her own life a few years ago. tragic.
 
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old goriot

Well-known member
and canada, clubbing cute seals!

japan has more than made up for its behaviour, i think. they have offered apologies countless times to china and it seems to fall on deaf ears. it never had a nüremberg, though, and it should have. i read the rape of nanking ages ago and found it a bit too emotional. can you recommend another source on the subject, zhao?

edit: i have just found out iris chang took her own life a few years ago. tragic.

About the seal clubbing... It seems like you are joking, but I think it is worth addressing. There is nothing wrong with the seal hunt. Seals are wildly overpopulated because their natural predators have been destroyed. They are now hampering efforts to reestablish fish populations (no predators + protected prey = population explosion). The situation is similar to the sea lions that are overrunning the west coast. Canadians would not support the seal hunt if it were immoral. We take wildlife conservation very seriously.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Nah, everyone loves Canada, with your mounties and your funny flappy heads and your 'aboot'. :)

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