UK EU Referendum Aftermath

[vimothy]

And the mirror image of that is the convergence of the mainstream left and right over a socially progressive, economically capitalist consensus.

 

[vimothy]

I'm just not convinced that politicians go around pandering to every whim of the electorate

Well, of course they don't, and indeed aren't.

But equally, they have to be seen to respond to it to some extent in order to maintain legitimacy. And politicians can draw on popular sentiment in order to advance their own positions, careers, sincere beliefs, etc.

 

[luka]

I wouldnt disagree with any of that.

 

[Mr. Tea]

And the mirror image of that is the convergence of the mainstream left and right over a socially progressive, economically capitalist consensus.

You are joking, surely?

 

[vimothy]

Erm, no.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Well hang on, what's the 'mainstream right', in your definition, in terms of the UK? Do you mean the Cameronite part of the Tory party that formed the government until a couple of months ago? Because I don't see what's socially progressive about social mobility grinding to a halt and inequality rapidly heading towards levels not seen since Victorian times.

 

[luka]

No but you know what he means. Gay marriage etc

 

[luka]

This is his theme nowadays. Ubiquitous Liberalism. Surely you're familiar with it by now! He's been beating that drum for ages.

 

[craner]

It's a Peter Hitchens theme.

 

[vimothy]

Luka's right, I've been banging on about this for ages. Years, probably. 'Liberalism' in the political science / political philosophy sense is the consensus across the modern world - I don't think that's particularly controversial. That doesn't mean there aren't still political disagreements, but they're disagreements that occur within the same ideological or intellectual framework.

 

[craner]

Yes, I generally think that Vim doesn't use it as a pejorative, unlike PH. Same analysis, different conclusion.

 

[vimothy]

Bit miffed you've not noticed.

 

[vimothy]

Hitchens is a bit full-on at times. I think he's at his worst on Twitter. But his books and a lot of his columns are good.

 

[luka]

Well at least I've been paying attention. I'm not clear on what you want to replace it with though.

 

[luka]

Oh, ok, I see craner thinks you don't use it as a pejorative, but I'm not so sure about that.

 

[luka]

My feeling is, to poach a phrase craner used about sufi, that you're too canny to reveal precisely where your allegiance lies

 

[vimothy]

I'm not either. I guess I'm a bit ambivalent. I'm a man of my time and probably couldn't live any other way. But I feel that liberalism has some tragic flaws that are gradually pulling it apart.

 

[luka]

Well it clearly has internal contradictions

 

[luka]

Wanting to insist on tolerance. A need to universalise values while 'promoting diversity' and all the other stuff we've talked through before

 

[vimothy]

I think you can get similar analyses of liberalism from all over the political spectrum, not just from bitter old conservatives like PH.