borderpolice
Well-known member
simon silverdollar said:
of course the funk, in the strict musical sense that's to do with syncopation and timbre, has disappeared from cutting edge black music. jamaican music never had funk in that sense. crunk is too electronic, as is much hiphop now, and grime, with novel kinds of rhythmic styles having displaced the funk. good thing too!
but i don't think it is possible to even talk about music and musical qualities without reference to (imagined) audience. the fact that you now dislike funk is itself (in parts) a reaction to whom you see appreciating this music, as opposed to who did way back. or so i'd imagine!
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bassnation
the abyss
stelfox said:
well it might be wearing for you, but i didn't take part in those threads - it annoyed me and i'm speaking my mind, simple as that. scroll down if it bores you.
S
simon silverdollar
Guest
bassnation said:
ha, i actually meant the post i did above to be a kind of 'hear hear' post about yr post where you wrote:
"everything seems to be divided by class, or if not class then race - or if we're really lucky, both. but as long as it allows us to connect it all in some grand overarching theory, then thats ok. or am i being overly cynical?"
Talking about race anc class in music doesn't bore me: i was just agreeing with you that i don't like the quick move of pointing to divisions of race and class as an explanation of what's going on when someone says that they do, or don't, like certain music.
at least, i thought i was agreeing with you!
bassnation
the abyss
simon silverdollar said:
sorry simon, its been a long week and i'm a little bit worn out and tetchy, just ignore that ill-tempered post!
i knew this would end up being an idiotic debate (which is why i said it wasn't worth rehashing) with people accusing others of taking positions that they did not in fact take
so it'd be helpful if people would read closely what someone else says before making such accusations
(not that my remarks ordinarily merit close reading -- but if you're going to ascribe a position to me or anyone else, then it's incumbent upon you to get that person's position right)
i didn't call hardcore black music -- i called it the ultimate creole music
moreover, i described early jungle as black music that owed debts to the creole music breakbeat hardcore and to position 2 music more generally
again, i called hardcore the ultimate creole music -- what more was i supposed to say???
as for country and western being influenced by black music -- or we could even say the blues influenced by scotch-irish ballads -- i said in very general terms the following:
in other words, i acknowledged that these categories are FALSE but that the question is about the EFFECTS of different kinds of false statements about music
and my argument was that if you cease to call music "black music" b/c it's influenced by other kinds of music, then the effect is that of denying our debts to black culture and black music
and again, I thought i had made clear that we were dealing w/ 2 different kinds of false statements
you, however, seem to thing that the worst kind of falsehood is to perpetuate the marketing categories of the music industry
you then ask why does the preponderance of influence run from black music to white music -- assuming that we accept this as true
and i think that it is true for simple reason that black music is more rhythmically powerful and, further, more adequate to the spiritual & psychological needs of modern people
(not that i'm prepared to defend this statement)
so you ask how it is that influence is transmitted, and you say
i think it has something to do w/ the music you hear everyday in your house as a young child growing up
the record collections that your parents have, the radio stations they listen to
the music you hear at church and family gatherings
i don't know
but again, at no point did i deny that there are perfectly competent white musicians and white producers involved in black music -- in fact i stated as much very clearly
really -- the issue was whether white critics could understand black music on its "own terms" or would necessarily have to understand w/ reference to rock music
and as for society as whole relating to rhythmic music in same way as blacks do, i think it may well take several more generations for a true creole culture to develop
and yet i also speculated that maybe the younger generation will have a more direct relationship to black music b/c of the commercial dominance of hip hop r'n'b for past 10 years
BUT IN GENERAL, i don't think that influence of this kind works as a "free exchange of ideas" -- on the deepest level it's all very unconscious, having to do with what you're surrounded by day in and day out as a young child
bassnation then remarks:
first, i think blissblogger uses the term "creative misappropriation" as a compliment -- he's taking this concept out of harold bloom and nietzsche (and in turn hegel and locke)
second, we use "influence" to describe the white influence on black music b/c is it not the case that very few blacks set out to make white music in the way that whites set out to make black music??? is it not the case the whites self-consciously take up musical forms that were developed by blacks, but that the reverse rarely happens?
SO when whites set out to make funk music or house music or hip hop, they are appropriating black music, trying to make it their own expression
or is it your claim that blacks did not invent these musical forms???
(the only parallel, really, is blacks being trained in classical music -- but that's a matter of being trained rather than appropriating as such)
also it's clear that blissblogger is using the term "creative misappropriation" in opposition to the "curatorial" mindset, wherein nothing new is developed
i.e., the curatorial mindset is decadent, whereas creative misappropriation is desirable and good
if i did, then it's certainly been turnabout fair play as bassnation has put words on my keyboard and then some!
then it looks like we're in agreement???
first, i did acknowledge the complexity
second, i spoke not of the intention behind the statement but the EFFECT of the statement -- and the effect is to expropriate
but what really kills me is that i didn't participate in the "black versus urban music" thread precisely b/c such arguments necessarily degenerate in the fashion that this one has, w/ the one side accusing the other of "orientalism," and the other calling the one "expropriatiors" -- except that i haven't accused anyone of being an expropriator -- i was speaking in terms of the effects of certain names and arguments, not the intention behind the names
so it'd be helpful if people would read closely what someone else says before making such accusations
(not that my remarks ordinarily merit close reading -- but if you're going to ascribe a position to me or anyone else, then it's incumbent upon you to get that person's position right)
bassnation said:
i didn't call hardcore black music -- i called it the ultimate creole music
moreover, i described early jungle as black music that owed debts to the creole music breakbeat hardcore and to position 2 music more generally
bassnation said:
again, i called hardcore the ultimate creole music -- what more was i supposed to say???
as for country and western being influenced by black music -- or we could even say the blues influenced by scotch-irish ballads -- i said in very general terms the following:
dominic said:
in other words, i acknowledged that these categories are FALSE but that the question is about the EFFECTS of different kinds of false statements about music
and my argument was that if you cease to call music "black music" b/c it's influenced by other kinds of music, then the effect is that of denying our debts to black culture and black music
and again, I thought i had made clear that we were dealing w/ 2 different kinds of false statements
dominic said:
you, however, seem to thing that the worst kind of falsehood is to perpetuate the marketing categories of the music industry
bassnation said:
you then ask why does the preponderance of influence run from black music to white music -- assuming that we accept this as true
and i think that it is true for simple reason that black music is more rhythmically powerful and, further, more adequate to the spiritual & psychological needs of modern people
(not that i'm prepared to defend this statement)
so you ask how it is that influence is transmitted, and you say
bassnation said:
i think it has something to do w/ the music you hear everyday in your house as a young child growing up
the record collections that your parents have, the radio stations they listen to
the music you hear at church and family gatherings
i don't know
but again, at no point did i deny that there are perfectly competent white musicians and white producers involved in black music -- in fact i stated as much very clearly
really -- the issue was whether white critics could understand black music on its "own terms" or would necessarily have to understand w/ reference to rock music
and as for society as whole relating to rhythmic music in same way as blacks do, i think it may well take several more generations for a true creole culture to develop
and yet i also speculated that maybe the younger generation will have a more direct relationship to black music b/c of the commercial dominance of hip hop r'n'b for past 10 years
BUT IN GENERAL, i don't think that influence of this kind works as a "free exchange of ideas" -- on the deepest level it's all very unconscious, having to do with what you're surrounded by day in and day out as a young child
bassnation then remarks:
bassnation said:
first, i think blissblogger uses the term "creative misappropriation" as a compliment -- he's taking this concept out of harold bloom and nietzsche (and in turn hegel and locke)
second, we use "influence" to describe the white influence on black music b/c is it not the case that very few blacks set out to make white music in the way that whites set out to make black music??? is it not the case the whites self-consciously take up musical forms that were developed by blacks, but that the reverse rarely happens?
SO when whites set out to make funk music or house music or hip hop, they are appropriating black music, trying to make it their own expression
or is it your claim that blacks did not invent these musical forms???
(the only parallel, really, is blacks being trained in classical music -- but that's a matter of being trained rather than appropriating as such)
also it's clear that blissblogger is using the term "creative misappropriation" in opposition to the "curatorial" mindset, wherein nothing new is developed
i.e., the curatorial mindset is decadent, whereas creative misappropriation is desirable and good
Pearsall said:
if i did, then it's certainly been turnabout fair play as bassnation has put words on my keyboard and then some!
Pearsall said:
then it looks like we're in agreement???
Pearsall said:
first, i did acknowledge the complexity
second, i spoke not of the intention behind the statement but the EFFECT of the statement -- and the effect is to expropriate
but what really kills me is that i didn't participate in the "black versus urban music" thread precisely b/c such arguments necessarily degenerate in the fashion that this one has, w/ the one side accusing the other of "orientalism," and the other calling the one "expropriatiors" -- except that i haven't accused anyone of being an expropriator -- i was speaking in terms of the effects of certain names and arguments, not the intention behind the names
also -- for the record -- i didn't introduce the term black music to this discussion
i merely defended the use of the term when others challenged it
and when bassnation stated his dislike of the term, he specifically signaled out my use of it
which is why i then went to the bother of schematizing music -- which is not the same as evaluating music
ALSO, bassnation asks whether early british house sounds "white"?
answer = YES, sounds like white misappropriation of black american music -- and for the record i happen to like early 808 state (especially the "united 90" album or whatever it's called, i.e., the one with the psychedelicized american flag on the cover)
(and yes i know very well that british blacks were intimately involved with this exchange -- which is why i describe the more junglistic strains of 88/92 uk rave music as "creole" -- and yet i think it fair to call the more outright junglistic stuff "black" -- BUT REALLY the discussion was not about rave music, precisely b/c it did not keep to the standard bounds -- we were talking about black music in general, at which point certain parties contested the term -- i.e., the term black music was introduced when blissblogger began to describe the tightness of black music as opposed to the sloppiness valued by so much white indie rock -- and then i suggested that the failure to understand broken beat, i.e., why we're so mystified that people like 4hero could leave intense raving music for the seeming blandness of broken beat, may have something to do with a failure to understand black music on its "own terms")
i merely defended the use of the term when others challenged it
and when bassnation stated his dislike of the term, he specifically signaled out my use of it
which is why i then went to the bother of schematizing music -- which is not the same as evaluating music
ALSO, bassnation asks whether early british house sounds "white"?
answer = YES, sounds like white misappropriation of black american music -- and for the record i happen to like early 808 state (especially the "united 90" album or whatever it's called, i.e., the one with the psychedelicized american flag on the cover)
(and yes i know very well that british blacks were intimately involved with this exchange -- which is why i describe the more junglistic strains of 88/92 uk rave music as "creole" -- and yet i think it fair to call the more outright junglistic stuff "black" -- BUT REALLY the discussion was not about rave music, precisely b/c it did not keep to the standard bounds -- we were talking about black music in general, at which point certain parties contested the term -- i.e., the term black music was introduced when blissblogger began to describe the tightness of black music as opposed to the sloppiness valued by so much white indie rock -- and then i suggested that the failure to understand broken beat, i.e., why we're so mystified that people like 4hero could leave intense raving music for the seeming blandness of broken beat, may have something to do with a failure to understand black music on its "own terms")
bassnation
the abyss
dominic said:
dominic, there really is no hope for you.
Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
Oh I dunno, I thought it was a good thread, and not too overburndened with class / race discussions, which themselves aren't a bad way of talking about music -- though I acept it can be irritating when people take the short cut of "pointing to divisions of race and class as an explanation of what's going on".
Anyway, back to the source:
Silverdollar:
which is just a long-winded way of asking: would anyone buy anything that proclaimed itself to be 'funky'? would that description attract you, even?
(i'm talking about modern stuff that calls itself 'funky', not older (pre-80s) stuff)
... which is an interesting question. I understand the critique implied. I guess I can't help reacting to the term itself, or rather the experience to which it relates -- I'm not joking when I say funk is holy music to me. And I'll use any excuse to remind myself of the glory of I Don't Know What It Is (But it Sure Is Funky) .
And the thing is, I like a lot of what's categorised as "bad" funky music: I love a lot of the Chillis' stuff, I love a lot of Ninja Tune stuff, I can even take a bit of acid jazz here and there (odd bits of Brand New Heavies for example -- wasnt there a bumpin' UKG mix of Shelter too?). Of course, the recognised don of acid jazz appreciation is Woebot...
... guess as Luka said, I just have terrible taste!
BTW: Broken Beat can be GREAT. I saw Tom Churchill do a set at his night in Glasgow -- utterly spellbinding, murderously intense, devestatingly syncopated and devilishly funky music the way he drops it. Not bland at all, at all.
-- though I acept it can be irritating when people take the short cut of "pointing to divisions of race and class as an explanation of what's going on". Anyway, back to the source:
Silverdollar:
which is just a long-winded way of asking: would anyone buy anything that proclaimed itself to be 'funky'? would that description attract you, even?
(i'm talking about modern stuff that calls itself 'funky', not older (pre-80s) stuff)
... which is an interesting question. I understand the critique implied. I guess I can't help reacting to the term itself, or rather the experience to which it relates -- I'm not joking when I say funk is holy music to me
. And I'll use any excuse to remind myself of the glory of I Don't Know What It Is (But it Sure Is Funky) . And the thing is, I like a lot of what's categorised as "bad" funky music: I love a lot of the Chillis' stuff, I love a lot of Ninja Tune stuff, I can even take a bit of acid jazz here and there (odd bits of Brand New Heavies for example -- wasnt there a bumpin' UKG mix of Shelter too?). Of course, the recognised don of acid jazz appreciation is Woebot...
... guess as Luka said, I just have terrible taste!
BTW: Broken Beat can be GREAT. I saw Tom Churchill do a set at his night in Glasgow -- utterly spellbinding, murderously intense, devestatingly syncopated and devilishly funky music the way he drops it. Not bland at all, at all.
2stepfan said:Oh I dunno, I thought it was a good thread, and not too overburndened with class / race discussions, which themselves aren't a bad way of talking about music
Anyway, back to the source:
Silverdollar:
which is just a long-winded way of asking: would anyone buy anything that proclaimed itself to be 'funky'? would that description attract you, even?
(i'm talking about modern stuff that calls itself 'funky', not older (pre-80s) stuff)
BTW: Broken Beat can be GREAT. I saw Tom Churchill do a set at his night in Glasgow -- utterly spellbinding, murderously intense, devestatingly syncopated and devilishly funky music the way he drops it. Not bland at all, at all.
weird cos that stuff seems to have come from the more west london groovy side of techno appreciation, four hero and all them are at it. It was called west london jazz for a while were'nt it, tom runs emoticon and headspace dunee? emoticon did the best ever jeff samuels record i think.
smooth soul and essex, that lush smooth soul stuff usually had amazing 808 programming and the lushest warm fairlight chords all over it, got to have been a big influence on shiny essex chart pop like and spandau ballet and kajagoo goo, , who incidentally released an amazing extended mix of too shy,sounds like carl craig or something. then you got all that amazing stuff jam and lewis produced, the angular minneapolis sound which is just about as good as it gets. that stuff is funky in the way that james browns beats are, ie you better stop thinking and just enjoy it or it will do you head in.
incidentally mk 2 squarepusher bought his 303 off shakatak! it had pre programmed looped blines in it.
any hip hop since the 80's with the word funky in it will be good but not anything else really i think. that's because hip hop nicked that rough 70s sound and added smooth mcing and 808s etc
funky house which is the other music essentials distribute with grime is just bad, as is that west london kinda world house stuff.
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S
simon silverdollar
Guest
perhaps i should just say that although, as i said, i have a bit of a problem with some of the arguments and comments on this thread, i wasn't trying to be all like, 'i started this thread- play by my rules!'. cuz that'd be stupid.
i wasn't trying to stop people talking about race and class [like i could!], more just trying to find out if other people felt the same as me and wanted to have a discussion about different stuff as well.
speaking of which, i may have to check out some broken beat stuff in a more serious manner than i have been- any good primer recommendations?
i wasn't trying to stop people talking about race and class [like i could!], more just trying to find out if other people felt the same as me and wanted to have a discussion about different stuff as well.
speaking of which, i may have to check out some broken beat stuff in a more serious manner than i have been- any good primer recommendations?
ladyboygrimsby
Active member
simon silverdollar said:
Shirley Horn - Return To Paradise (Mark de Clive-Lowe Remix)
Seiji - Loose Lips (in fact anything by Seiji, but especially this; they re-did it with a rap last year but the original's still the simplest and best)
Solid Groove - Flookin'
Bugz In The Attic - Booty La La (also the Bugz cover of Zombie's nice)
I was down at Goya last week and picked up a bunch of new stuff from them, the best of which is :
Trevor Loveys - Sambooka
Phuturistix - Cohiba
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bassnation
the abyss
hint said:In honour of this thread, I dropped all night long by the mary jane girls in the back room at progression sessions last night
currently toying with the idea of doing a quick broken mix to post up here
ha ha! good for you. would always be prepared to give music a second listen.
Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
Yeah. The West London sound as it was called -- an SP1200, Logic, Rhodes samples and some weird grooves...mms said:
Yeah. Tom is a Don. SUCH a nice guy. Releases great records too. A real underground hero.mms said:
Yeah. Spandau were Islington boys but totally came from Jazz Funk.mms said:
Wild! Great story, where'd you get that from?mms said:
Ah. I really like a lot of funky housemms said:
. And if by west London world house you mean afrobeat influenced stuff, well....
Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
Simon...simon silverdollar said:
Here, you can do no wrong.
Here, everyone loves you.
all night long by the mary jane girls
Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnne!!!!!
Would love a broken beat mix.
Tom C did a great one a few years back if you can find it....
2stepfan said:
yep you're right point lost then2stepfan said:
2stepfan said:
i used to know tom fairly well, he used to live up the road from me in stoke newington,and i used to share a huge dirty cheap house with one of his best mates among others, course there is the rephlex connection.
all those early eps are named after places in north london, alroy road tracks, the duke of haringay, (pub on greenlanes) etc. he's a strange guy, we don't chat much no more.
2stepfan said:Ah. I really like a lot of funky house
but its so boring, how can you like congo natty and funky house!
what does it do, maybe one tune in 500 but i dunno. it's the music of choice of the snobby lot in reckless records.bassnation
the abyss
mms said:but its so boring, how can you like congo natty and funky house!
paul is amazingly open-minded when it comes to music - not often i hear him dissing anything, he can always find a positive angle the old hippie as he is!