Under what contexts are certain terms racist?

[baboon2004]

Er...have I missed something, or is this completely f@#king obvious? Yes, the lyrics are racist, except if said through the narrative voice of a racist character, in which case they are descriptive of another's racist views?

Is this really so tricky? Usually the standard of debate on here is high, but this is ridiculous.

This reminds me of Randall Kennedy's book 'Nigger', which, although it brought to light several interesting cases, mainly spent 200 pages stating the bleeding obvious (and bypassed many fruitful areas of commentary, such as glossing over the ubiquitous hip-hop use of 'nigga').

 

[originaldrum]

i never really bought into it but this buddy of mine once tied me up in an argument to which essentially he was stating "to like a race more than another race - is racism as well" kind of like, if you like aboriginals better than say asians you are racist.

any one else heard this old chestnut?

 

[baboon2004]

Well of course it's racism to prefer one race over another. That's pretty much the definition of the word, after all.

 

[tryptych]

dunno spackboy... you seem to think it's OK.... is there a context in which your username isn't potentially offensive? you may well be disabled for all I know, so I'm not quite sure how to take it.

Aha.. good one... I don't really have a defense against that, as I'm not disabled. It comes from.. never mind where it comes from, a rather juvenile insult from when I was younger. Maybe I should change it? How annoying.. hoist by my own petard!

I have to say I chose it unthinkingly, and I'd certainly find "niggerboy" offensive in this context. One definately seems more offensive to me, but I guess that's from my own context and prejudices.

 

[tryptych]

Er...have I missed something, or is this completely f@#king obvious? Yes, the lyrics are racist, except if said through the narrative voice of a racist character, in which case they are descriptive of another's racist views?

Is this really so tricky? Usually the standard of debate on here is high, but this is ridiculous.

This reminds me of Randall Kennedy's book 'Nigger', which, although it brought to light several interesting cases, mainly spent 200 pages stating the bleeding obvious (and bypassed many fruitful areas of commentary, such as glossing over the ubiquitous hip-hop use of 'nigga').

Yes, I thought it was obvious too, and was very suprised when the people involved with making the track didn't find it racist, offensive or problematic, as I regard them as sensible, intelligent people. I just wanted to see what other people thought... I'm sorry if it isn't appropriate or of a high enough standard...

 

[john eden]

I'm sorry if it isn't appropriate or of a high enough standard...

Hey don't worry about that, it never put me off!

 

[john eden]

Well of course it's racism to prefer one race over another. That's pretty much the definition of the word, after all.

It would be a question of degree though. If you have a position of power, like a cop or a boss and you use that preference in your work in terms of arrests, or who to hire, then yes of course it is.

 

[baboon2004]

Yes, I thought it was obvious too, and was very suprised when the people involved with making the track didn't find it racist, offensive or problematic, as I regard them as sensible, intelligent people. I just wanted to see what other people thought... I'm sorry if it isn't appropriate or of a high enough standard...

Ah, maybe I phrased what I said in an overtly aggressive way - apologies if that was the case, I hate it when people do that to me...

I just that there seems to be so much debate around certain issues that certain people can't recognise what should be patently obvious (I appreciate that you feel as mystified as me).

 

[baboon2004]

It would be a question of degree though. If you have a position of power, like a cop or a boss and you use that preference in your work in terms of arrests, or who to hire, then yes of course it is.

I disagree. What else is racism but a preference for/belief in the superiority (in some way or another) of one race over another? What position you are in and whether you exercise your power in line with this preference/belief is completely irrelevant as to the question of whether the racism exists - it just makes the racism more overt and more noxious.

You seem to be suggesting that if I were to prefer white people over black people, then I would not be a racist if I didn't do anything about it. Er....?

 

[baboon2004]

Aha.. good one... I don't really have a defense against that, as I'm not disabled. It comes from.. never mind where it comes from, a rather juvenile insult from when I was younger. Maybe I should change it? How annoying.. hoist by my own petard!

I have to say I chose it unthinkingly, and I'd certainly find "niggerboy" offensive in this context. One definately seems more offensive to me, but I guess that's from my own context and prejudices.

Now this is a really interesting question - which facets of a person is it OK to mock, either 'ironically' or otherwise. Where, for example, do your standard Joey Deacon jokes (which feature in many comedians' sets) fit into a discourse on minorities and injurious comments against them?

 

[Omaar]

I disagree. What else is racism but a preference for/belief in the superiority (in some way or another) of one race over another? What position you are in and whether you exercise your power in line with this preference/belief is completely irrelevant as to the question of whether the racism exists - it just makes the racism more overt and more noxious.

I think I disagree with you on this one, it can be useful to distinguish between racist beliefs and racist actions.

I thinks it's pretty unavoidable that people make generalisations, receive and believe mis/disinformation on ethnic/sexual/ etc difference

Isn'it it difficult to withhold value judgements when confronted with difference? Doesn't withholding these judgements often require a conscious effort? Isn't it OK to hold beliefs about and make value judgments about another group/culture/whatever? As long as you try and be conscious of these judgments, try and avoid over generalisations, stereotypes, and attempt not to let these judgments affect how you treat other people?

Holding racist beliefs is not criminal, but it is ignorant and immoral. Acting on these beliefs will often be criminal.

I guess the realtionship between belief and action is not this simple though, and a lot of racist actions are unconscious.

 

[nonseq]

Yes, perhaps a distinction could be made between 'racism' and 'racial discrimination'.
Racism: the belief/ideology.
Racial discrimination: the practice.

 

[Melchior]

the lyrics are racist, except if said through the narrative voice of a racist character, in which case they are descriptive of another's racist views?.

Lets take this as a starting point for our understanding .

Yes, I thought it was obvious too, and was very suprised when the people involved with making the track didn't find it racist, offensive or problematic, as I regard them as sensible, intelligent people. I just wanted to see what other people thought... I'm sorry if it isn't appropriate or of a high enough standard...

So let me check this out.

You're saying that the people who made this track are saying that their lyrics are not racist? But not claiming that they are the narrative voice of a racist character? I might suggest that new friends are in order...

 

[Melchior]

Holding racist beliefs is not criminal, but it is ignorant and immoral. Acting on these beliefs will often be criminal.

In what way is the criminality of all of this relevent? There are a number of things which are criminal, but not immoral (such as drug use), and a number of things that are immoral but not criminal (such as racial profiling).

 

[nonseq]

In what way is the criminality of all of this relevent? There are a number of things which are
criminal, but not immoral (such as drug use)

Using drugs is not immoral?

Buying drugs means sponsoring a whole system of exploitation, hate, violence, murder, rape. It means destroying individuals, families, economies, countries. It means funding violence and stimulating repressive laws and police actions. Funding dictatorial regimes, Birma for example. It means destroying the environment, for example, xtc labs often dump their chemical waste in nature. It means funding the weapons industry..

I could go on with my rant..

 

[Omaar]

In what way is the criminality of all of this relevent? There are a number of things which are criminal, but not immoral (such as drug use), and a number of things that are immoral but not criminal (such as racial profiling).

Criminality in the sense of doing something that society deems wrong and deserving of punishment.

 

[Melchior]

I could go on with my rant..

You could, but let's not, or take it to the Thought Forum.

Criminality in the sense of doing something that society deems wrong and deserving of punishment.

Sure, but I'm not quite sure why the destinction is relevent to this discussion. Are you using criminality for a synonym for 'worse than things that aren't illegal'?

 

[Omaar]

Sure, but I'm not quite sure why the destinction is relevent to this discussion.

re: relevance - up thread there is some disagreement over racist beliefs vs racist actions. Itis not directly relevant to the first post if that's what you mean?

Are you using criminality for a synonym for 'worse than things that aren't illegal'?

I don' think so, but I'm not sure that I understand you correctly. Perhaps criminal is not quite the right term, i initially hesitated in using it but decided it was the probably the best word to use.

 

[DJ PIMP]

I love the races, racists, rapists, and papists.

 

[Buick6]

There's a difference between talking about it and beleiving it and DOING it.

It's also used as a leveller to cause offense or a complaint about a power/class issue.

Anti-semitism has been the , oldest, longest and most HIGHLY PRACTISED form of INSTITUTIONALISED abuse of the 'other' in human history.

Racism , and any other forms of prejudice are about equal opportunities and the denial of them, ultimately.