Under what contexts are certain terms racist?

[dominic]

Isn'it it difficult to withhold value judgements when confronted with difference? Doesn't withholding these judgements often require a conscious effort? Isn't it OK to hold beliefs about and make value judgments about another group/culture/whatever? As long as you try and be conscious of these judgments, try and avoid over generalisations, stereotypes, and attempt not to let these judgments affect how you treat other people?

(1) suppose the case of white men who are sexually attracted to white and asian women, but not to black women. is this a case of racism?

(2) suppose the case of white men who believe that music made by blacks is, in the great run of cases, more powerful, more funky, heavier, more sonically innovative, more rhymically dynamic, etc, etc, than music made by people from other racial backgrounds. is this a case of racism?

 

[dominic]

Buying drugs means sponsoring a whole system of exploitation, hate, violence, murder, rape. It means destroying individuals, families, economies, countries. It means funding violence and stimulating repressive laws and police actions. Funding dictatorial regimes, Birma for example. It means destroying the environment, for example, xtc labs often dump their chemical waste in nature. It means funding the weapons industry..

by the logic of this argument, buying most any product involves the consumer in a hideous network of social oppression and degradation of the environment

eat chicken? eat beef? wear nikes? wear a shirt?

conversely, what if you went out into a field and harvested magic mushrooms yourself? mushrooms that simply grew there naturally?

and as for drugs destroying families . . . . is it not rather the case of compulsive behavior destroying the user and thereby undermining his projects and human relationships and concerns?

i.e., many things other than drugs can be made the medium of compulsive and self-destructive behavior

i think only a small percentage of people are prone to compulsive drug use and addiction

 

[Omaar]

(2) suppose the case of white men who believe that music made by blacks is, in the great run of cases, more powerful, more funky, heavier, more sonically innovative, more rhymically dynamic, etc, etc, than music made by people from other racial backgrounds. is this a case of racism?

I'm listening to the meters right now and I think that this stuff is pretty much as funky as it ever gets, and I'd say I agree with some of what you say in your hypothetical case above (not as a rule, but in general). In any case, I don't think this is contradictory to what I said before. Hopefully not - I'm not quite sure whether you're disagreeing with me or not anyway. what about:

(2) suppose the case of black men who believe that music made by blacks is, in the great run of cases, more powerful, more funky, heavier, more sonically innovative, more rhymically dynamic, etc, etc, than music made by people from other racial backgrounds. is this a case of racism? (modification of dominic from upthread)

I feel like this conversation has happened 10,000 times before, but that's no reason to stop having it I guess.

 

[Melchior]

(1) suppose the case of white men who are sexually attracted to white and asian women, but not to black women. is this a case of racism?

(2) suppose the case of white men who believe that music made by blacks is, in the great run of cases, more powerful, more funky, heavier, more sonically innovative, more rhymically dynamic, etc, etc, than music made by people from other racial backgrounds. is this a case of racism?

Quite clearly yes to both of the above. Are these examples as harmful as a cop who specifically targets black and asian men? No, but are they racist? Yes.


The old definitions of racism and racialism helped distingiush between these things, but I think that people realised that beleiving that there was inherent differences between races (racism) was the same thing for all practical purposes as believing in the superiority of one race over others (racialism). So the sillier sounding word (racialism) was abandoned.

 

[Melchior]

(2) suppose the case of black men who believe that music made by blacks is, in the great run of cases, more powerful, more funky, heavier, more sonically innovative, more rhymically dynamic, etc, etc, than music made by people from other racial backgrounds. is this a case of racism? (modification of dominic from upthread)

Again, quite clearly yes.

 

[Omaar]

Quite clearly yes to both of the above. Are these examples as harmful as a cop who specifically targets black and asian men? No, but are they racist? Yes.


The old definitions of racism and racialism helped distingiush between these things, but I think that people realised that beleiving that there was inherent differences between races (racism) was the same thing for all practical purposes as believing in the superiority of one race over others (racialism). So the sillier sounding word (racialism) was abandoned.

4 real?

 

[nonseq]

by the logic of this argument, buying most any product involves the consumer in a hideous network of social oppression and degradation of the environment

eat chicken? eat beef? wear nikes? wear a shirt?

Unless you buy bio food, shoes and clothing from moral companies etc. It's all possible, but almost nobody cares about this. It's more important to buy coffee 0.50 euro cheaper than paying a fair price so the farmer and his family can get a better life, education for the kids and so on. The rich don't want to lose their privileged positions so they close their eyes for the structural inequality and misery, opting instead for sending some occaisional money when there is a natural disaster.

conversely, what if you went out into a field and harvested magic mushrooms yourself? mushrooms that simply grew there naturally?

Yes of course I'm not talking about homegrown weed etc when it stays outside crime. But most drugs are illegal in most places therefore produced and distributed by criminal organizations. Buying from them sustains them and thier devastating effects.

and as for drugs destroying families . . . . is it not rather the case of compulsive behavior destroying the user and thereby undermining his projects and human relationships and concerns?
i.e., many things other than drugs can be made the medium of compulsive and self-destructive behavior
i think only a small percentage of people are prone to compulsive drug use and addiction

I meant destroying families for example in Colombia in the case of coke. The families of kidnapped, murdered people etc, families in destroyed countries with no future for the kids but working in coca fields, constant risk of getting murdered or raped by terror squads. Parents in jail, kids living on the streets. Drug traffickers shot down or cokeballs opening in their stomach killing them, peasants bombed by the U.S. etc etc What about crack babies and structural chaos and misery in ghetto's, downward spirals ad infinitum. The more rich people buy drugs, the richer the maffia, the bigger their influence on the poor, kids who also want those expensive clothes and cars. Check out the documentary on the dvd of Cidade de Deus.

The rich are living safely in Europe, snorting coke, and have never even given it a thought what they are paying for. Not the coke, it's cheap. They're funding guns, death squads, corruption, kidnapping, dictators and so on. Western decadence is fuel to the destruction of third world countries.

Is the destruction caused by cartels really the same level of misery as the life of a girl in a free trade zone making Nike shoes? That should also be changed of course, but do you really think it's comparable?

Of course it's all infinitely more nuanced and complex, but the general point will remain:
buy drugs and you're destroying a lot more than your own health.

 

[Melchior]

4 real?

Of course. Making choices based on race is racist.

Upon rereading Dominic's example, you could argue that it is a historical observation that black men have the funk more than anyone else. That's not racist I guess. But to assume from that that only black men are funky, well that would be racist, and quite wrong.

I mean, I'm funky as fuck.

nonseq - surely that's a problem with global capitalism, and specifically our insane drug laws rather than a problem with drugs themselves? Plus it's a gross generalisation about drugs. If I grow my own weed, I'm not contributing to the rape and pillage of Colombia. Give me the opportunity to buy free trade coke, and I'll give it serious thought. The other problem wth your arguement is that you imply that it's possible to abstain from capitalism's nastyness through careful consumption, which I regard as patently and obviously wrong.

Edit: I still thin k we should give the drug question it's own thread, so I made one. Here. See you there!

 

[nonseq]

I(2) suppose the case of black men who believe that music made by blacks is, in the great run of cases, more powerful, more funky, heavier, more sonically innovative, more rhymically dynamic, etc, etc, than music made by people from other racial backgrounds. is this a case of racism?

Yes, and let's not use that horrible word 'reverse racism'.

 

[nonseq]

Edit: I still thin k we should give the drug question it's own thread, so I made one. Here. See you there!

Yes, gotta catch some sleep now but see you tomorrow then!

 

[Melchior]

Yes, gotta catch some sleep now but see you tomorrow then!

I'm amazed you're still up! Are you sure you're not on drugs?

 

[ripley]

Of course. Making choices based on race is racist.

That definition removes the term "racist" from any context of power and social inequality.

(yes indeed, this is a very old debate)

It's useful to be able to distinguish between
1. acts that are prejudiced, and
2. acts that depend on, maintain and possibly encourage existing systematic inequality(s).

Otherwise there is a sense that the existing systematic inequality doesn't exist, and the whole thing can be reduced to a choice of 'generalized opinions.' Which might be a bad thing, but only in a sort of intellectual, anti-lazy--thinking kind of way.

The fact is, society is systematically unequal and some races benefit from that, again, systematically (although of course not universally). If you trade on that inequality in some way, benefit from it, then I'd call it racism.

That's why I would distinguish between black folks' prejudice against white folks, and white folks' prejudice against black folks, for example. I'm not really concerned with excusing or ranking prejudices, but the difference between them is important. I favor using "racism" to describe acts that align one with those who benefit from a society that generally favors white folks - which is generally white folks
(although there being far more than white and black, and far more shades in between, it is more complicated than just identifying who's white)

Hypothetically, I suppose there could be racism in a society that systematically biased in another direction. But in this world, I think white supremacy is a pretty strong motivating factor in global systems.. (not the only one of course)

(of course, 'racism' also includes relying on the category of 'race' .. but that's a whole 'nother debate!)

 

[martin]

Would it make a difference if the singer was asian or black? Maybe... but since he targets at least two groups - and lets not forget, the queers as well, I'm not sure.

Obviously, if you took certain lyrics out of the context of the song as a whole, you could say that Tom Robinson Band and Adam and the Ants have produced racist material. There's an argument that using bigoted language makes the impact stronger when the punchline at the end of the song reveals it's actually an attack on the person who holds those abhorrent views. I personally don't mind this, as I think these sort of tactics can be more effective than just writing lyrics along the lines of "Leave gays alone, racism is evil", etc.

But the artists should also be prepared to face the fact that if somebody hears an excerpt of the lyrics and takes offence, that's the risk you take when you deploy this tactic. It pisses me off when artists scream "No you fools! Listen to the whole song! It's obviously ironic!" - if a Puerto Rican should hear a snatch of a song with lyrics that run "I'm gonna light up a beacon on a Puerto Rican / Watch me smile as he drops down dead", could (s)he really be blamed for not wanting to listen to the entire song to discover it's meant to be a parody of an impotent racist?

 

[dominic]

(1) suppose the case of white men who are sexually attracted to white and asian women, but not to black women. is this a case of racism?

i'm not sure if it's racist or not

however, i tend to agree w/ k-punk that male sexual desire is fantastic & pathological

so whether such rules of attraction are racist is a question that has to be approached from the larger question of whether male sexual desire is inherently pathological

 

[dominic]

But most drugs are illegal in most places therefore produced and distributed by criminal organizations. Buying from them sustains them and thier devastating effects.

so we should legalize drugs and let phillip morris take over the business?

i.e., people of course realize that if you legalize drugs then hustlers will be made redundant???

I meant destroying families for example in Colombia in the case of coke. The families of kidnapped, murdered people etc, families in destroyed countries with no future for the kids but working in coca fields, constant risk of getting murdered or raped by terror squads. Parents in jail, kids living on the streets. Drug traffickers shot down or cokeballs opening in their stomach killing them, peasants bombed by the U.S. etc etc

isn't this more a function of poverty and imperialism?

why do you see drugs as the root of all evil? -- i.e., why not eliminate money instead

What about crack babies

that's govt propaganda recently debunked

and structural chaos and misery in ghetto's

poor people weren't miserable before the 20th century??? -- i.e., let's say that drugs first get widely disseminated in western societies circa 1950

(i.e., i don't think heroin and marijuana were all that common in 19th c., barring a few poets and the like -- but correct me if i'm wrong)

and what's so bad about taking drugs to relieve the misery of one's days?

Check out the documentary on the dvd of Cidade de Deus.

i think the "city of god" a wonderful, first-rate film -- but i still don't agree w/ your arguments

The rich are living safely in Europe, snorting coke, and have never even given it a thought what they are paying for. Not the coke, it's cheap. They're funding guns, death squads, corruption, kidnapping, dictators and so on. Western decadence is fuel to the destruction of third world countries.

this is entirely too simplistic an account

Is the destruction caused by cartels really the same level of misery as the life of a girl in a free trade zone making Nike shoes? That should also be changed of course, but do you really think it's comparable?

cartels exist b/c men lust for money and power -- if they weren't fighting for control of the drug trade, they'd be fighting for control of some other trade

and why do cartels have such power in some countries?

(1) absence of the rule of law (and culture of law)

(2) weak states -- which is closely related to point 1

Of course it's all infinitely more nuanced and complex

indeed

but the general point will remain: buy drugs and you're destroying a lot more than your own health.

drug use is destructive of one's health only if done in excess

therefore, the point is so general as to be meaningless = buy anything and you participate in the destruction of a lot of things

(none of which is to suggest that i'd advocate smoking a couple joints a day (though i guess it's fine if works for you and doesn't hinder your projecgts) -- nor would i deny that drugs are part and parcel of a hedonistic and mindless mass culture)

and i also think that the taboo and criminal attributes of drug use allow for social exchange w/ people you o/w might not come into contact with or get to know -- i.e., not everyone who uses illegal drugs takes advantage of such opportunity -- and yet enough users do that it's safe to say they lead more interesting lives than straight people who keep to their "own kind"

drugs, music, religion = the great levellers, the mediums of mano a mano understanding = everyone's the same when they're high on cocaine = breaking down everyday identities

you call it immoral, i call it good

 

[tryptych]

mp3!

If anyone is still interested in what sparked this issue, here's an mp3 of the track in question. Hmm, I can't seem to just upload it here, as its too big. so here's a yousendit link. It's only 1.6mg.

http://s47.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1G04E6LBEOQSV2BHXGE1S36JYS

Also, maybe take the drug discussion to the thread melchior started in thought...?

 

[CDPA]

off point

thanks for the mp3. i think the thread seems to have really gone off point. interesting discussion though - my view is there are no absolutes. ive listened to the track in question and i think its offensive but deliberately so. the narrative voice seems to embody hatred in general. or at least dissatisfaction. its taking it too far perhaps to use the language he used but is it perhaps exaggeration for effect. he's not just sick of racial groups he's sick of his dog too - is it not time to call in the rspca before he does it some harm. is this song to be taken seriously? is it punk? dubious lyrical content aside i thought it was quite funny and good in a disposable kind of way.

 

[CDPA]

sick of the day i was born

having listening again here's some of the things he also sick of...

its pretty much everything right down to being sick of the day he was born:

the grays
scissor sisters
being pale
chavs
scouse
dealers
pimps
intellectuals (hmmm....)
television
being hard
being flacid
acid
constipation
climate
air
bush
blair
flies
moths
queers
goths
medication
withdrawal
being short
liggers
triggers
being sober
being drunk
treble
bass
spots on my face
mash potato
bacon sarnies
hippies
trendy cunts
hooligans
my dreams
good intentions
and charity

 

[Pearsall]

Quite clearly yes to both of the above. Are these examples as harmful as a cop who specifically targets black and asian men? No, but are they racist? Yes.

Surely the first one is an aesthetics call?

 

[Melchior]

Surely the first one is an aesthetics call?

Sort of. But don't you think that racial ideas play a roll in why white men like asian or black women?