Personal Character reflected in Music

[zhao]

personality is not childish. thats a stupid university person thing to say. someone whos reads more than they observe.

"personality" is a dubious explanation because it is a collection of a vast number of different kinds of information, from natural to cultural. numbers so vast that it is impossible to pin-point any kind of core or essence - it becomes an easy, grab-bag, overloaded term that means so many different things that it becomes meaningless.

it is also a trap people too willingly fall into: because it reinforces basic false notions of the individual --

I am the way I am because I'm SPECIAL. instead of: I am the way I am because of complex combinations of genetic, historical, social, and economic factors.

 

[bassnation]

"personality" is a dubious explanation because it is a collection of a vast number of different factors, from natural to cultural. it becomes an easy grab-bag term that means so many different things that it becomes meaningless.

just because its complicated doesn't negate it as a reason.

awkward messy individuals with unique personalities and needs don't fit into marxist crit theory do they? its just a conceit of the ruling class.

 

[Jezmi]

I think there´s been a huge assumption on this thread, and that is that every person is as interested in music -- but depending on available time, the interest is more or less developed. I think there are more than enough people that, say, prefer cuisine (taste) or art (sight) and have a far less interest in music (sound).

 

[Grievous Angel]

awkward messy individuals with unique personalities and needs don't fit into marxist crit theory do they? its just a conceit of the ruling class.

Yeah. It's such a load of tedious wank isn't? I thought Marxists had got past unreconstructed economic determinism years ago. Sorry Conf, but you're getting nil points today. Just too reductionist, even with your caveats, but you knew that when you posted, yeah?

My taste: I like Porgy and Bess more than On The Corner and Prisoners of Technology more than Enforcers. But I'm a bundle of laughs compared to most music nerds .

 

[zhao]

I think there are more than enough people that, say, prefer cuisine (taste) or art (sight) and have a far less interest in music (sound).

what's great about a Marxist critique is that it's portable - and what I said about music can be readily applied to any of these things

and as an aside, you'd be suprised how many manual labourers are deeply into music.

this is very true. I am lumping a huge class together just for convenience, and I do recognize that there are many exceptions. I used to curate a series of lower-case, sound-art events, and once after the show I was talking to this guy for a long time about Xenakis and Staukhousen, and later he said he has so much time for the appreciation of music because --- he is a truck driver.

 

[stelfox]

no, I'm actually giving people (who like Nick Carter, Ashlee Simpson, or Kenny G) more credit: they are not ACTUALLY stupid. a 60 hour work-week at a menial job (capitalism) MAKES them stupid.

will prolly get shit for this, but fuck it.

no it doesn't. this also presupposes that liking mainstream pop is a stupid thing to do, which it isn't.

yet again, another dissensus thread that makes me want to go out burning books (or at least introducing a fucking selective policy as to to who precisely is allowed read them) and watching strippers.

 

[zhao]

awkward messy individuals with unique personalities and needs don't fit into marxist crit theory do they?

sure they do. and that is precisely what I'm arguing FOR - complexity.

I am NOT being reductionst. to categorize people simply as "introverts", "extroverts", "sad", or "happy", and use that as explanation for their behavior without examining the multitudes of factors which are the underlying causes for these characteristics is a LOT more reductive.

 

[zhao]

this also presupposes that liking mainstream pop is a stupid thing to do, which it isn't.

ofcourse not. sorry if it seems like that's what I'm saying.

from today's top-40 chart I find quite a few things of merit:

Rihanna
Sean Paul
The Notorious B.I.G
Ludacris
Madonna (maybe)
T-Pain

I said "stupid" just to be confrontational. prolly a mistake. "ignorant" is a better word.

for instance: once I struck up a conversation with a very nice Afro-American lady standing in line at traffic court, paying parking tickets. and among other things we started talking about jazz: she said that she loved Kenny G, and to my jaw-dropping astonishment, she DIDN'T KNOW WHO JOHN COLTRANE WAS. she was not stupid, just rediculously under-exposed.

 

[luka]

'yet again, another dissensus thread that makes me want to go out burning books (or at least introducing a fucking selective policy as to to who precisely is allowed read them) and watching strippers.'

funnily enough dave, thats exactly what i've got planned for this weekend, get in touch and i'll let you come too

 

[zhao]

what the fuck.

all I did is point out the direct relationship of:

amount of leisure time to appreciation of music.

what exactly is your problem with this?

nice knee-jerk dismissal, with zero contribution in terms of anything constructive to the discussion, "Dave".

yeah go spend your money boozing and tipping. sounds GREAT.

 

[martin]

Confucius is right. Working class people are just thick, basically. Listening to processed muck, like the junk food they shove in their gobs. Garbage in, garbage out, people! It's ridiculous expecting any of them to have heard of John Coltrane or Luigi Nono, it's all uncritical dancing down their sheep pen discos and sticky-floored bars. Let em drown in a tidal wave of ignorance, I say.

 

[stelfox]

oh, it's obvious is it? 1) can't you see that it doesn't matter whether you are saying that working-class people are born stupid or made stupid, whatever highfalutin nmeans you use to justify it, you are still saying they're stupid!
and 2) i actually come from a working-class family. also i work pretty hard at a job unrelated to music, so where do i as music bleeding critic fit into this oh so incredibly *obvious* sub-college-dorm-room theory?

 

[zhao]

Stelfox, I understand why you see my statements in a certain light, and why that upsets you.

it's true: I'm not from the working class. I am from the LOWER CLASS. my entire family used to live in a TINY 1-bedroom apartment... but I digress. (only mentioning this because your blue-colloar self-righteousness seems to insinuate that I'm some kind of trust-fund art-school twat)

as Martin points out, sarcastic or otherwise, you cannot deny that the poor and uneducated consume the highest percentage of fast food. which is terrible for the body. the same mal-nutrition happens on the level of culture. depriving people (women - historically, inner city people of African descent - historicall and to this day) of access to education has always been a major way of control and subjugation.

do you have a problem with me saying this too?

 

[matt b]

she said that she loved Kenny G, and to my jaw-dropping astonishment, she DIDN'T KNOW WHO JOHN COLTRANE WAS. she was not stupid, just rediculously under-exposed.

you have to remember that many people do not place much importance on music- my girlfriend dislikes huge swathes of my record collection, not because she hasn't been exposed to it, or hasn't got time to listen to it- although, it might all be down to her mackem mining roots -its because SHE DOESN'T LIKE IT.

she does however like 'britpop'. does this make her a bad person?

 

[stelfox]

oh this is nonsense. i really do give up.

 

[martin]

she does however like 'britpop'. does this make her a bad person?

Yes, dump her immediately!

 

[zhao]

oh this is nonsense. i really do give up.

so you are just going to dismiss my statements with no backing argument? nice one.

 

[droid]

i think this is dissensus indie personality coming to the fore once again.

is it impossible to believe that some listeners really do dig elton john for what he is?

No - not at all. Is it impossible to believe that some may listen to him because theyve never heard a better singer/songwriter and are too lazy/busy to find one?

 

[bassnation]

No - not at all. Is it impossible to believe that some may listen to him because theyve never heard a better singer/songwriter and are too lazy/busy to find one?

all things are possible, which is why its best to avoid generalisation. to start off from the point of "they only listen because they don't understand" assumes way way too much, and it says a lot about peoples attitudes to the "masses" (i'm not accusing you of this, btw, just explaining why i objected to the original post)

but enough of the theory - why don't we try a practical test?

i'm going round my mum-in-laws tonight, shes a keen elton fan. i'm willing to bet you a hundred quid if i take some akufen and phillip glass round there - which shes been deprived of hearing thus far in life - she won't be swopping.

up for it, mr droid?

 

[stelfox]

ok confucius, for what it's worth and i doubt that's much, i think you are talking utter tripe because it's a categoric statement that presupposes that all pop music is bad and anyone that doesn't care about music particularly (in the same way i don't really bother myself with theatre, for instance) is "stupid" and that anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong.