Personal Character reflected in Music

[john eden]

There is a bizarre assumption throughout this thread that indy schmindy music is "better" than chart music, and that this somehow relates to class.

Can we at least agree that all music is a product of the society in which it is made and that society will also produce various consumer niches for the consumption of not just music, but of everything?

As Stewart Home would say if he was here "all of anarchism is present in the idea that one can live differently within capitalism."

 

[droid]

all things are possible, which is why its best to avoid generalisation. to start off from the point of "they only listen because they don't understand" assumes way way too much, and it says a lot about peoples attitudes to the "masses" (i'm not accusing you of this, btw, just explaining why i objected to the original post)

but enough of the theory - why don't we try a practical test?

i'm going round my mum-in-laws tonight, shes a keen elton fan. i'm willing to bet you a hundred quid if i take some akufen and phillip glass round there, she won't be swopping.

up for it, mr droid?

LOL! Thats a no-win situation there... maybe you'd have more success with something closer to the original source? She moight like a bit of Tom Waits (though hardly obscure)... y' never know... i turned a Rod Stewart fan onto Waits after I told him who wrote 'Downtown Train'...

I agree that generalisations (as always) are wack as fuck, but I think Confucius is being torn apart here based on a semi deliberate mis-interpretaion. He didnt say 'they dont understand' he said 'its not available to them' a subtle but definite distinction - and not a value judgement IMO...

 

[Jezmi]

No - not at all. Is it impossible to believe that some may listen to him because theyve never heard a better singer/songwriter and are too lazy/busy to find one?

Or....they are satisfied with what they know, and therefore don´t feel the need to find new influences.

 

[bassnation]

LOL! Thats a no-win situation there... maybe you'd have more success with something closer to the original source? She moight like a bit of Tom Waits (though hardly obscure)... y' never know... i turned a Rod Stewart fan onto Waits after I told him who wrote 'Downtown Train'

i just realised i've screwed up here by actually admitting that i own some akufen records. can i just categorically state it was all a mistake and i'll never do it again?

 

[bassnation]

Or....they are satisfied with what they know, and therefore don´t feel the need to find new influences.

exactly.

 

[Jezmi]

You know, most people on this forum love music, as do I. We build it up in our perception into something almost divine, and experience it that way and that´s great! But that doesn´t mean that any other way of listening to music is wrong/worse/lower quality.

 

[stelfox]

LOL! Thats a no-win situation there... maybe you'd have more success with something closer to the original source? She moight like a bit of Tom Waits (though hardly obscure)... y' never know... i turned a Rod Stewart fan onto Waits after I told him who wrote 'Downtown Train'...

I agree that generalisations (as always) are wack as fuck, but I think Confucius is being torn apart here based on a semi deliberate mis-interpretaion. He didnt say 'they dont understand' he said 'its not available to them' a subtle but definite distinction - and not a value judgement IMO...

it doesn't matter whether it's "they don't understand" or "they don't know any better and could understand if we teach them". i know the latter is a classic paternalistic stance, be it either coming from the marxist school of thought (and damn it all, i had hoped not to hear a great deal of marxism these days) or the right wing, but it's crap either way. if people are hungry for art, they'll find it, or make it irrespective of class, money or anything else.

 

[zhao]

all pop music is bad and anyone that doesn't care about music particularly is "stupid" and that anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong.

none of this is what I meant. Stelfox, if you stubbornly choose to read my posts in a narrow-minded way, often COMPLETELY misinterpreting my point, there is nothing I can do.

There is a bizarre assumption throughout this thread that indy schmindy music is "better" than chart music, and that this somehow relates to class.

no. for the 374th time. what I'm saying is that if you were born in the Hamptons your tastes might be different (NOT BETTER) than if you were born in south central. that economics, in many, many ways, determine your "taste".

the "stupid" thing, which I knew was a mistake, is about lower classes (prolly just a little more than others) working too much and having no time and resources 1. for themselves, and 2. to engage with culture in more meaningful ways - they are more deprived of learning and education than the rest of the population.

I bet you my left index finger that the lady who likes Kenny-G would like "kind of blue" more if she had time to sit down and listen.

As Stewart Home would say if he was here "all of anarchism is present in the idea that one can live differently within capitalism."

hmmm... interesting but this is opening all types of new cans of worms so I'll leave it alone for now.

 

[stelfox]

it's not a misinterpretation, though. it's what you said!

 

[zhao]

if people are hungry for art, they'll find it, or make it irrespective of class, money or anything else.

while very true in some regards, (see my truck-driver friend who is into Xenakis), in the bigger picture this is a collosal unrealistic statement. it's up there with "if people want to become famous rappers or ball-players, they'll make it"

the reality for most poor people is 60+ hours a week of meaningless, spirit-destroying repetition, just to make ends meet. even middle class people are so tired when they get home from work all they can do is sit in front of the tube. how, I ask you, can they have time for art?

 

[zhao]

it's not a misinterpretation, though. it's what you said!

i did NOT say all pop music is bad.

i did NOT say anyone that doesn't care about music particularly is "stupid"

i did NOT say anyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong.

time for new reading glasses Stelfox.

 

[john eden]

how, I ask you, can they have time for art?

ROTFLMFAO - what do you sound like?

 

[stelfox]

well, i have plenty of time for it and i work a 50 hour week on average, so much time for it in fact that i go home and bloody write about it for posh people to read about! if i can do it so can most people. the simple fact is that most people don't care about music or discussiing it in great depth and the more i contribute to this particular thread the more i agree with them.

 

[john eden]

for the 374th time. what I'm saying is that if you were born in the Hamptons your tastes might be different (NOT BETTER) than if you were born in south central. that economics, in many, many ways, determine your "taste".

They might not be different. There might be commonality there.

The bits of music that people from both areas like might be pop music.

There may be commonality in what people like which has more to do with gender, or race, or age.

In fact what I would argue that is pop music from yesteryear is more likely to unite people across class divisions than to seperate them. Because a lot of it is based on nostalgia for youth.

 

[zhao]

you are blind to all the points I've made except for the 1 confrontational one, which you are using to relegate me to some kind of disgusting snob, while I am the opposite. (believe or not a fuck I do not give)

it's my fault really, for using language which enables you to do so.

it's a good lesson. in the future i have to be more careful with my words.

but it's difficult because if i DARE to talk about an entire class of uneducated, poor people, and how they are being fucked by the system, and happen to use the word "they", how do i NOT sound like a disgusting snob?

is the solution just to steer away from these topics and not talk about it?

 

[zhao]

pop music from yesteryear is more likely to unite people across class divisions than to seperate them.

good point. and that is a part of what makes art so important isn't it?

all I'm saying is that what we call "personality" and behavior that goes with it, is to a largely ignored extent, determined by historic, socio-economic factors.

 

[matt b]

but it's difficult because if i DARE to talk about an entire class of uneducated, poor people, and how they are being fucked by the system, and happen to use the word "they", how do i NOT sound like a disgusting snob?

well, exactly

is the solution just to steer away from these topics and not talk about it?

no, its to use words/ phrases that don't make you come across like a bit of a twat on internet phorums

oh, and drop the marxist spiel.





martin- i'll check with the other half about how she feels about ending our relationship immediately, and get back to you.

 

[droid]

Or....they are satisfied with what they know, and therefore don´t feel the need to find new influences

My god! Another possibility! The world seems to be full of them...

it doesn't matter whether it's "they don't understand" or "they don't know any better and could understand if we teach them". i know the latter is a classic paternalistic stance, be it either coming from the marxist school of thought (and damn it all, i had hoped not to hear a great deal of marxism these days) or the right wing, but it's crap either way.

No no no!!! Thats not what I was saying at all... why did you quote: "they don't know any better and could understand if we teach them" when I actually said "its not available to them"? Big Big difference there.

if people are hungry for art, they'll find it, or make it irrespective of class, money or anything else.

I agree with that, and the point Im making (and I admit to playing devils advocate to some extent here) is that some peole arent hungry, and are satisfied with what is presented to them on mainstream TV and radio. Whats wrong with that? It doesnt invalidate popism or condemn all pop music as rubbish...

it's a good lesson. in the future i have to be more careful with my words.

If you want to avoid getting caught in the popist/rockist cold war, it might be an idea....

 

[bassnation]

If you want to avoid getting caught in the popist/rockist cold war, it might be an idea....

i'm not buying into any of that business. when i first heard people talking about popism i used to wonder what the catholic church had to do with anything - thats how little i know about rock crit theory.

however, there is an implicit assumption on many music forums that they alone are keepers of the secret flame and the general public are somehow less for not being in on it. maybe i'm just an old fart, but i prefer to find things in common now, with all kinds of people of all ages. music is no longer an identity and is there to be enjoyed rather than worn.

i don't accept that people are as ignorant as they are made out to be. like stelfox says, the art and music is out there. if people don't reach for it doesn't mean they don't know about it. maybe its just not touching them in the way that it touches us. i don't want to look down my nose at anyone.

 

[infinite thought]

Might I just humbly suggest that whatever it is that Confucius is doing with his words, it probably isn't 'Marxist analysis'?