baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
At the risk of sounding utterly blasphemous, is there some kind of conpiracy that says you must refer to DJ Premier and Pete Rock every time hip-hop production is discussed? I mean, these two would strike me as far better examples of producers who have the OCCASIONAL genius beat. Sorry, but some of the time they're pretty fucking dull. I like Gang Starr a lot, but there is only so much you can take of the formula.
I rate Three Six Mafia far above them both as far as imaginative, hypnotic production is concerned. Surely any attempt to place Triple Six below Gang Starr et al is the same old tedious Golden Age conservatism.
How many people here actually rate the Golden Age of 1989-1995 (or whatever) over the past five years of hip hop? Maybe I'm perverse, but tracks such as 'Southern Hospitality', 'Grindin' ' 'What About Us?' (OK, that's RnB), etc, etc do far more for me in terms of excitement than most NY tracks of the early 90s.
I rate Three Six Mafia far above them both as far as imaginative, hypnotic production is concerned. Surely any attempt to place Triple Six below Gang Starr et al is the same old tedious Golden Age conservatism.
How many people here actually rate the Golden Age of 1989-1995 (or whatever) over the past five years of hip hop? Maybe I'm perverse, but tracks such as 'Southern Hospitality', 'Grindin' ' 'What About Us?' (OK, that's RnB), etc, etc do far more for me in terms of excitement than most NY tracks of the early 90s.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
mms said:
I presume you're talking about Premier and Pete Rock, mms. In which case, thank you for assuring me that I'm not alone. Their place in the 'canon' seems to be far too seldom challenged. 'T.R.O.Y.' is one of my favourite ever tracks, but the album it's off is unbearably tedious.
The Neptunes and Timbaland shit all over these canonical figures, quite frankly, especially when at their untouchable best. As do the Bomb Squad, naturally.
baboon2004 said:
yeah, i always preferred hip hop when it was more comtemporary and electronic i guess, not trying to be all cannonistically sophisticated and jazzy or whatever, as the cap doesn't fit.
There is a big arguement i had with derek on here from ages ago where i'm saying premier really fucked hip hop.
interestingly there is a big piece with the bomb squad and their history and production in wax poetics this month - which is the sort of place i'd expect more soul boyish stuff, haven't read it yet but i'm told it's skill.
Precious Cuts
Well-known member
mistersloane said:
I don't think anyone knows for sure.. Bone Thugs and Twista had beef over it, but then decided that they both came up with the sound at the same time but independently. Then they made up and did a song together
mistersloane
heavy heavy monster sound
Precious Cuts said:
I didn't know that, thanks.
My fav Trip 6 track is 'Damn I'm Crazed'. It actually scares me.
Precious Cuts
Well-known member
Poisonous Dart said:
haven't heard the Little Brother CD.. but I find it strange that Drama uses the Gangsta Grillz tag for a Little Brother CD, considering all the shit Little Brother have talked about everything that "gangsta grillz" represents.
OK dudes back off from the ILM archives...baboon2004 said:
Poisonous Dart's tunnel vision is like a charicature of "REAL HIP HOP" I know, but to me Hypnotized Minds beats - as incredible as they are - aren't any less 'one trick' tracks than anything Premier did. The difference is that Premier was canonized early on, where 3-6 are only getting recognition towards the tail end of their creative period. So yeah, dudes who only ride New York canon are corny, but so is this "hip-hop only got good with TIMBALAND" thing.
I think the first Pete Rock and CL Smooth EP and LPs are pretty great all around. Its a long album, but if you have a problem with that you shouldn't be listening to much recent hip-hop at all.
Also, the idea that there is one good song on "Most Known Unknowns" is absurd.
yeah I'm also getting really sick of BOTH sides of the old vs. new hiphop generation gap.
[climbs onto high horse]
If any of you had been listening to these artists when they were releasing their canonical works you would know how much they meant to hiphop at that time, how exciting and moving some of these songs were. The fact that they later gave birth to the orthodoxy that is responsible for a lot of boring underground hiphop records should not be held against them, as no innovator should be blamed for the mediocrity of their imitators.
[climbs down]
I wish people didn't feel the need to turn music appreciation into an occasion for factionalist elitism, it's a really great way to miss whole galaxies of great songs. All the musicians that I know who I respect draw inspiration from and appreciate artists so far from the normal orthodoxies you wouldn't believe it because they recognize the fact that a good song is a good song, period.
[climbs onto high horse]
If any of you had been listening to these artists when they were releasing their canonical works you would know how much they meant to hiphop at that time, how exciting and moving some of these songs were. The fact that they later gave birth to the orthodoxy that is responsible for a lot of boring underground hiphop records should not be held against them, as no innovator should be blamed for the mediocrity of their imitators.
[climbs down]
I wish people didn't feel the need to turn music appreciation into an occasion for factionalist elitism, it's a really great way to miss whole galaxies of great songs. All the musicians that I know who I respect draw inspiration from and appreciate artists so far from the normal orthodoxies you wouldn't believe it because they recognize the fact that a good song is a good song, period.
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baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
SIZZLE said:
You're absolutely right, of course.
I love lots of golden age hip-hop; it's simply the idea that this period is somehow superior to what's been happening recently that irks me. Well, not irks me so much as bores the living shit out of me.
See also: the endless-repeated notion that Rakim is the best rapper of all time. Jesus, dude is tight but he doesn't have any fucking personality on record....
baboon2004 said:
how is it any different from people saying post-punk from the late 70s-early 80s was superior to the modern regurgitations? or people who say drum n bass in the 90s was heaps better than the stuff thats been coming out since around 1999/2000 or so? every genre has a time thats popularly settled on as its artistic peak
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
gumdrops said:
Never said it was any different. Out of interest though, would you agree with either of the two commonly-voiced opinions there you've used as examples? I would think at least one of them was more persuasive than the equivalent notion about hip hop.
God, maybe I am a reactionary....
As for the Chris Rock comment, it's fair enough. But put Rakim up against Slick Rick, Biz Markie, Ludacris, Eminem, Big L, Jay-Z, Bun-B etc etc etc, and, at least to me, it becomes clear that mystique and metronomic precision are not the most important qualities that a rapper can have.... I love the classic Eric B & Rakim records, to be sure, but I feel that Eric B is the one responsible for most of the magic (if indeed Rakim only had input into the rhymes: can't claim to know the minutiae of the partnership).
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Incidentally, I'm not playing Devil's Advocate re Rakim; honestly think he's well over-rated. Undoubtedly very good, but top ten of all time? Nah.
mistersloane
heavy heavy monster sound
Biggest 'mystique' about Rakim was him ending up on that Anne Dudley / Art of Noise record....
When he first appeared ( 'taking off my coat, clearin my throat' ) it was seriously like James Joyce had invaded rap and suddenly seen its potential, his spatial awareness within rhyme is unparalleled. Nas can - on form - certainly create an unfolding of time and place, but Rakim seems to just be able to create space around himself with the vision of the words he unfolds. I think it was the shock that he created from doing that - first - which is why he's held in such high esteem. If you don't think he's top ten then at least give up props for originating a style. Bit of a po-faced wanker though, I reckon.
When he first appeared ( 'taking off my coat, clearin my throat' ) it was seriously like James Joyce had invaded rap and suddenly seen its potential, his spatial awareness within rhyme is unparalleled. Nas can - on form - certainly create an unfolding of time and place, but Rakim seems to just be able to create space around himself with the vision of the words he unfolds. I think it was the shock that he created from doing that - first - which is why he's held in such high esteem. If you don't think he's top ten then at least give up props for originating a style. Bit of a po-faced wanker though, I reckon.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
mistersloane said:
I'll accept that I've undersold him, and I can see your argument there (nice James Joyce comparison). I guess that, as far as I'm concerned, I rate other facets of a rapper far more highly - punchlines, effervescence, emotional connection, rhythmic invention (see Ludacris and Missy, imo)....
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
And I can see my way to giving him props for his trailblazing...I just get frustrated with the unquestioning canon, as always.... 
Po-faced tho, f'sure.
Po-faced tho, f'sure.