triple 6 mafia

[mistersloane]

Yeah don't get me wrong I'm not one of them Golden Era people, and certainly Luda can rock a punchline - 'Never stood half a chance like Siamese Twins' on the Made You Look remix rocks - and Missy seems to see everything in visual terms, she's kinda like the Chuck Palniuhuk of rap or something, but Rakim really does do something weird, he puts you in the position of the rapper and the viewer, it's very dreamlike. Plus isn't he cited as being the first Nation of Gods and Earths rapper? Certainly all that street mystic stuff ( see RZA adpoting later ) came from him as well, maybe,

 

[baboon2004]

My personal favourite Luda was a skit - 'Your mama so old she gang-banged with the Hebrews"...OK, not the best, but damn funny. And the triplet (?) time bursts on 'Saturday' are fantastic, too.

Maybe I haven't given Rakim enough credit, but the bottom line is simple - I find him dull after a few tracks, and especially if the beat is not of 'Follow the Leader' or 'I Know You Got Soul' - type quality.

 

[gumdrops]

Never said it was any different. Out of interest though, would you agree with either of the two commonly-voiced opinions there you've used as examples? I would think at least one of them was more persuasive than the equivalent notion about hip hop.

God, maybe I am a reactionary....

i know hip hop fans are a myopic, often sad, easy to poke fun at bunch, but i find something a bit wrong when people who arent even really INTO hip hop like to tell hip hop heads that their consensus is totally wrong.

put Rakim up against Slick Rick, Biz Markie, Ludacris, Eminem, Big L, Jay-Z, Bun-B etc etc etc, and, at least to me, it becomes clear that mystique and metronomic precision are not the most important qualities that a rapper can have....

most of the rappers you mentioned with disagree. rakim didnt have much of a sense of humour, but his more formal, less conversational, serious approach was nothing like anything else in hip hop in 1987/1986. rakims appeal comes from that steely, precise, mean, overtly cool/non-emotive style (that guys like jadakiss use) he raps in.

I love the classic Eric B & Rakim records, to be sure, but I feel that Eric B is the one responsible for most of the magic (if indeed Rakim only had input into the rhymes: can't claim to know the minutiae of the partnership).

eric b did hardly anything on those record - he could barely even scratch and most of the production credited to him was done by others. he was just the DJ, a friend of rakims, and a burly figure handy for someone like rakim to have around. of the tracks he did get the right credit for making, rakim had an equal hand in those too.

 

[baboon2004]

Interesting.....

Ok, I love hip hop for a lot of reasons. Just cos I'm not 'into it' (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean - guess I don't have my membership card or something) as much as some people here, dessn't mean I can't offer a perfectly valid opinion.

I'm not really meaning to poke fun, as my own opinions will, quite rightly, be just as risible to some. I just barely ever see the MCs I adore get as much credit as I feel they should (by which I mean, more love than Rakim or Tupac).

As regards the relative roles of Eric B & Rakim, I stand corrected.

 

[gumdrops]

well.. im not saying for a second that i am the gatekeeper or that someone like poisonous dart has been a hardcore hip hop head for decades so his opinion carries more weight.

i suppose its just about how people like hank shocklee think modern hip hop is lifeless, derivative, and stale but people coming from other genres think its never looked more vibrant and vice versa, etc etc.

 

[baboon2004]

well.. im not saying for a second that i am the gatekeeper or that someone like poisonous dart has been a hardcore hip hop head for decades so his opinion carries more weight.

i suppose its just about how people like hank shocklee think modern hip hop is lifeless, derivative, and stale but people coming from other genres think its never looked more vibrant and vice versa, etc etc.

Sure, point taken - I'm probably just being over-argumentative

That's an interesting point re the inside/outside views....but surely there're tons of hip-hop heads who prefer the current stuff as well?

Not being rude, but clearly at some level Hank Shocklee is an idiot (tho' a legend, taking his place in the pantheon of hip-hop idiot-savants alongside KRS-ONE, Nas et al) if that's his opinion.

 

[gumdrops]

Sure, point taken - I'm probably just being over-argumentative

That's an interesting point re the inside/outside views....but surely there're tons of hip-hop heads who prefer the current stuff as well?

hmmm, not sure. *most* (not all, obviously) people who were into hip hop before 95/96 are generally of the opinion that it lost its way somewhat in the late 90s. and before anyone says thats only nerdy white backpacker types who think that, no its not.

Not being rude, but clearly at some level Hank Shocklee is an idiot (tho' a legend, taking his place in the pantheon of hip-hop idiot-savants alongside KRS-ONE, Nas et al) if that's his opinion.

in that case, theres a LOT of rappers/producers who are idiots. andre3000, q-tip, rakim, chuck d, prince paul etc etc. which may well be the case. maybe theyre all just bitter, jaded, out of touch relics dissapointed that they havent been able to keep up with the times and that their own gifts have been fading. or maybe they have a point. maybe its both.

 

[baboon2004]

in that case, theres a LOT of rappers/producers who are idiots.

Well, I'd certainly agree with that. Sad to say, but I have pissed myself at some of the utter crap KRS (the king of idiots), Nas etc have come out with in interviews. Of the stuff I've read/seen, Pac and Biggie seemed among the most lucid, and they're far from my favourite rappers.

As for those you mentioned who think hip-hop has lost its way, aren't they all, with the exception of Andre 3000, well past their best?

 

[baboon2004]

Sorry, you actually said they were.....anyways, yeah, they're probably jaded, cynical bastards, which makes me like all of them a whole lot more.

 

[DavidD]

I don't know how you can't get any character from Rakim. And then you list Bun B? I understand if yr all into Missy/Luda type rappers, but Bun is like straight out of the Rakim school, serious, deep-throated full of internal rhymes etc.

 

[baboon2004]

Yeah, my bad - tis true.

 

[baboon2004]

Guess I just have a soft spot for him cos I really like the UGK production I've heard...

 

[gumdrops]

trill was alright, but all the guest verses bun b did before that album were absolutely classic. pretty much everything ugk did was better than trill too. everyone talks about bun but pimp c will always have a place in my heart for the way he delivers the line "im still pimp c bitch so what the fuck is up?' on murder.

 

[baboon2004]

Pimp C does seem rubbish next to Bun B tho.....

 

[DavidD]

Nah they complement each other. Pimp is all about attitude. Bun is way more boring by himself.

 

[gumdrops]

yeah, i actually prefer pimp c's solo album (not the new one - havent heard that yet, i mean the last one) to trill.

 

[qwerty south]

can someone up underground vol 1 purlease!

 

[Poisonous Dart]

Actually...

At the risk of sounding utterly blasphemous, is there some kind of conpiracy that says you must refer to DJ Premier and Pete Rock every time hip-hop production is discussed? I mean, these two would strike me as far better examples of producers who have the OCCASIONAL genius beat. Sorry, but some of the time they're pretty fucking dull. I like Gang Starr a lot, but there is only so much you can take of the formula.

I rate Three Six Mafia far above them both as far as imaginative, hypnotic production is concerned. Surely any attempt to place Triple Six below Gang Starr et al is the same old tedious Golden Age conservatism.

How many people here actually rate the Golden Age of 1989-1995 (or whatever) over the past five years of hip hop? Maybe I'm perverse, but tracks such as 'Southern Hospitality', 'Grindin' ' 'What About Us?' (OK, that's RnB), etc, etc do far more for me in terms of excitement than most NY tracks of the early 90s.

The two Golden Eras were 1986-1988 and 1992-1996. 1991 and 1997 are both considered key years in setting up widespread changes in the climate and scene of the music overall. 1991 was a year in which the floodgates opened and intentiveness, creativity and variety reigned and several classic albums snapped Hip Hop out of it's doldrums and it lead into 1992, regarded as "The Year Of The Underground" and the beginng of the last Golden Era Of Hip Hop. 1997 began the downward spiral, several classic albums were created but the climate of the industry pushed most of the progressive, intentive and creative music DEEP UNDERGROUND...where the Morlocks live. Puff Daddy & The Family, Jay-Z, No Limit Records, Suave House Records, Hypnotize Minds,etc. started aking over the video and radio channels. Later, Cash Money Records, Ruff Ryders, etc. began dominating the charts and outselling Country & Rock REGULARLY. The big concert venues opened following no incidents after Def Jam's Survival Of The Illest Tour, Reasonable Doubt Tour and Hard Knock Life Tours. This led the way to the rap industry being about little more than money, misogyny and the flaunting of material items that the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of people worldwide could NEVER ACQUIRE. Without consciousness or balance, hip hop/rap suffered...and the young fans suffered MORE. These kids wouldn't even THINK to pick up a Saul Williams book! Damn shame. One.

 

[DavidD]

Puff Daddy & The Family, Jay-Z, No Limit Records, Suave House Records, Hypnotize Minds,etc. started aking over the video and radio channels. Later, Cash Money Records, Ruff Ryders, etc. began dominating the charts and outselling Country & Rock REGULARLY.

Golden age alert!

 

[baboon2004]

1997 began the downward spiral, several classic albums were created but the climate of the industry pushed most of the progressive, intentive and creative music DEEP UNDERGROUND...where the Morlocks live. Puff Daddy & The Family, Jay-Z, No Limit Records, Suave House Records, Hypnotize Minds,etc. started aking over the video and radio channels. Later, Cash Money Records, Ruff Ryders, etc. began dominating the charts and outselling Country & Rock REGULARLY. The big concert venues opened following no incidents after Def Jam's Survival Of The Illest Tour, Reasonable Doubt Tour and Hard Knock Life Tours. This led the way to the rap industry being about little more than money, misogyny and the flaunting of material items that the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of people worldwide could NEVER ACQUIRE. Without consciousness or balance, hip hop/rap suffered...and the young fans suffered MORE. These kids wouldn't even THINK to pick up a Saul Williams book! Damn shame. One.

OK - so was there consequently less misogyny and material aspiration in American society before 1997 then? Or, if not, do we accept that the subject matter of hip hop has very little knock-on effect on the mores of society? And, if this is true (as much as endless bitches-and-bling lyrics annoy and bore me too), can we not accept that hip hop is a branch of the entertainment industry to a certain extent, and that its fans are not idiots who will blindly follow what Jay-Z or Puff Daddy says?

Anyway, Cash Money and Jay-Z have hotter beats than almost any 'underground' artist I've heard. You're conflating creativity and consciousness.