The Wire on Dubstep

Martin Dust

Techno Zen Master
mms said:
i think this fucking northern soul aspect that's crept into people's attitudes to dance music is pretty ugly and worthless as well. i refuse to live in this kind of backward looking 'everything was simpler and great back then we had ours they had theirs' circle of shit.

I guess I'm to blame for some of this but hasn't it been always the way? I remember when E first came out and everyone was banging on about Beer Monsters etc and I don't think the them and us exists that much beyond people/groups who post on forums - I'd be interested in your views...
 

mms

sometimes
gek-opel said:
In terms of non-"Street" artists using rhythmical ideas from the avant-yob spectrum, is this process of gentrification (although sometimes the "gentrified" versions are more extreme than the originals, or take some basic principles of the beat and cartoonise it) not one of the most common threads that runs throughout mid 20th Century to present day popular music?

surely this is exactly what overall the street does to itself, happy hardcores relationship to rave and later jungle is exactly like this, as are things like euphoric trance to an extent, over the course of time even drum and bass has done this or done things as a reflection of the way trance has taken over the provincial towns etc, it's not something you could call gentrification though, esp happy hardcore in scotland etc, tartan techno etc. Also one of the biggest dance hits of the 90's higher state of conciousness is almost a totally non ironic escsessive parody of acid.
i think more than anything around the mid 90s boutique labels like mo wax and the big trousered instrumental hip hop lot made a lot stronger case for responsibility for the gentrification of dance music, as well as some of the drum and bass stuff itself, people like bukem etc, (even though i enjoyed some of his early sets) rather than someone like squarepusher, who seems to be doing stuff for different reasons and is rarely parodic/ironic anyway and then its for cheap laffs and quite joyous.

you reminded me of something akshirley, last week in fwd, me and a mate were in the second room when elb was playing and he remarked he wasn't into it much, he's from watford, he liked d and b etc and he grudgingly admits liking todd edwards but he just has an associative memory of garage as background music in watford for pub fights between coked up pissed men, he also likes autechre and other stuff a bit and i said to him something like 'na these drums are amazing, this one here sounds like autechre too.'
:eek:
 

mms

sometimes
Martin Dust said:
I guess I'm to blame for some of this but hasn't it been always the way? I remember when E first came out and everyone was banging on about Beer Monsters etc and I don't think the them and us exists that much beyond people/groups who post on forums - I'd be interested in your views...

i didn't mean your logo or anything - i thought this was cos you're from the north, not any backwards looking thing, so don't get me wrong there.
i think clubs are very very interesting places as people come there to directly contradict their normal behaviour, ie excess, moving bodies, sexuality, sensual irrationality, a natural sense of unity thru act, bodies moving in groups like shoals of fish and to an extent thats the way it is in the best places.
people will always look back, everyone does this but when its done with barefaced nostalgia then this is not an act as such.
 

Martin Dust

Techno Zen Master
mms said:
i didn't mean your logo or anything - i thought this was cos you're from the north, not any backwards looking thing, so don't get me wrong there..

:) I picked it for a a number of reasons and in some cases more of a warning than anything backwards looking...


mms said:
i think clubs are very very interesting places as people come there to directly contradict their normal behaviour, ie excess, moving bodies, sexuality, sensual irrationality, a natural sense of unity thru act, bodies moving in groups like shoals of fish and to an extent thats the way it is in the best places.
people will always look back, everyone does this but when its done with barefaced nostalgia then this is not an act as such.

True, those days are long gone for me, in Sheffield tho, one thing remains the same - anyone who trys anything different loses money....
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
right, i've read these pieces now.
i really don't see what the fuss is about at all.
rob young, as well as being a thoroughly nice chap who just i happen to disagree with about almost everything musical apart from my bloody valentine, has one great attribute as a music critic beyond being able to write better than most: he's really honest.
that editorial was a bit bonkers in terms of the comments about 2step IF he's talking about 2step garage (some of the girliest urban music ever, surely? and that girliness is a big point in its favour; one that's almost totally missing from dubstep now).
however, he might actually have been talking about drum & bass.
if he was, he's absolutely bang on the money and i agree unequivocally.
(i think this is worth finding out about, so might well ask him if i remember.)
as for eveything else, it was simply honest, and as far as i'm concerned, was actually pretty gutsy, rather than something to froth at the mouth over.
the wire has ignored a vast amount of music and has done for a long time. we all know that and that editorial actually came out and point-blank admitted it, offering a glimpse at the reasons why, in all their totally subjective glory.
sure, these reasons, and a lot of the wire's general aesthetic can be seen as flawed if you approach music from a street-level standpoint, but that's not necessarily wrong, just a differience in perspectives.
what the wire had never done before, though, was fess up to why a lot of pretty decent music wasn't being touched.
it's a risky move for a magazine to come to a scene this late and i thought it was handled really well.
if you read the editorial properly, all the contentious points within it are presented from a personal perspective or from the perspective of that one publication.
they're absolutely not stone tablets being offered from on high, telling you the way it is.
i mean, if it said "the wire has always supported the best of british urban music and now we're bringing you this great new development called dubstep" you'd all have a right to be livid about it.
it didn't, though. it basically said: "we're not even vaguely street here and we do have prejudices. we even approached dubstep with trepidation, but in the end we were competely won over by it. here's some stuff we love."
that's fine, and way better than i expected after all the pissing and whining.
(does make me want to refer them back to the several ignored pitches i made about horsepower productions back in the day, but hey, that's just a writer's life.)
that the editors' choice of "wire-friendly" artists is being seen as a bad thing is plain silly. what were they supposed to do? choose people who their readers wouldn't be able to get into or relate to?
sorry. that's just what magazines do — it's called catering to your demographic and it's the only way places like the wire, uncut, mojo and the precious few other music mags left in the UK stay afloat.
also, slagging off the wire for covering something that's essentially an idm record is completely loony. it's what they do and probably why they thought it was worth writing about in the first place!
anyway, look to the positives. it was nice to see the back of steve's head in there. he deserves the props.
also this issue might even prompt a few wire readers to look at your blogs and get into a much wider range of dubstep artists.
can't say i envy them that particular chore, because i don't like much of it at all any more, but that's me being subjective and honest, too.
 
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gek-opel

entered apprentice
Good points Stelfox, and yes he was very much presenting his own personal view in the editorial, and that's fine. But the question of why Boxcutter got covered isn't as open and shut as you might present, because as far as I can tell The Wire themselves are generally nowadays extremely dismissive of Warp-style electronica (or IDM or whatever you want to call it) as a rule, so it seemed a little bit odd for that reason beyond anything else... I think a kind of musical class dimension does come into this as well (and perhaps you would argue this comes down to the demographics as The Wire perceives it of their own niche in the market place) in the mid 90s they seemed much more amenable to more street-originated musics, whereas now their focus appears to be more firmly placed on various forms of more theory-mediated esoterica (with the exceptions of some of the regular genre columns such as hip hop). The question is really whether they have come to view themselves as merely re-acting to what their readership already likes, or whether they can see something that they might like and hip them to it (which is what they appear to be doing belatedly with Dubstep). There is also the question as to why they shifted away from these musics... as Rob Young says, cos they were really unimpressed with them? Some of the sub-genres he picks out yes fair enough, absolute dead ends and not very interesting (ie- D'n'B after 98 or whatever) but 2 step garage and grime seemed prime for Wire coverage.

Its really the shift from the mid-late 90s Wire to the way it is now which is a bit disappointing really, especially as one could imagine a much better magazine emerging given the strength of a lot of its contributors...
 
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mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
OK: To return to the previous question, who in the blog-mos has put forward a proposal for a grime/dubstep piece in the last few years to the Wire editorial staff and had it turned down? And for what reason?[/QUOTE]

Notable absence of comments except for Stelfox...
 

mms

sometimes
well not many of us big fans of burnt hand sons of man or whatever they are called but on a different website on the world of zearth in the 5th dimension or whatever someone was probably getting pissy about the weird america coverage, this is an area of specialist knowledge that we're hip to.

The only coverage of 2step and grime in a big way came from simon reynolds, who seems to be the guy they pull out when they need that scrutiny, looking back there were a few horsepower reviews etc, but the music they covered always had some sort of sciency continental theory about it and thats what they do well.
kodo, rob, penman and shapiro were good too,Its up to the wire to pull theories out of dance music (which is what they did really well when they allowed great specialist writers to do pieces on them) and i think that's potentially possible with dubstep.

I do wish they'd cover much more of this stuff though, i mean given that philp sherburne is a big minimal techno fan it would be great to have a kind of update on how thats evolving too, i'd love more hip hop too,i guess i'd like it to be a bit more like a more involved xlr8r, which has smart writing without it needing to be on records that are rare old and cost loads or utterly obscure.
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
only read the kode 9 part so far, which i enjoyed a lot, but for everyone griping about the shitness of the wire, have you guys read any of the other magazines on the market these days? id much rather read the wire than fucking q or the nme or any of those things. at least the wire still does indepth music writing, and its not afraid to be vaguely intelligent - it hasnt halved its word counts and its still designed really well. plus, unlike most 'alternative' music mags like urb or xlr8r, they havent succombed to featuring the same boring bands like frand ferdinand or whoever in their pages. yeah, it could be doing a lot more for innovations in modern urban or dance music, as its meant to be on the cutting edge, but you could accuse any number of magazines of the same thing. as far as grime and dubstep, better late than never, and its not like im seeing a whole load of coverage of either genre in any black music or dance mags, where youd think they would find a more natural home.
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
as i said before, steve barker has been reviewing it for a while, which makes sense, as does the kode9 'invisible jukebox' (which was, as always the best part of the issue), but the editorial was awful. then again it always is.

and i buy the wire every month and would recommend everyone else does, if only for the lovely pictures.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
The thing which needs to be reiterated is that its still a good magazine with decent design and an excellent premise, it just seems slightly too fusty for its own good. There's any number of writers who could be putting forward theoretical perspectives on any number of urban/dance innovations but they seem to have deliberately either shunted them off to the genre review columns or ignored them completely. Its the lack of editorialisation of these cultures (remember Simon R's ridiculously great 2-step think piece?) which is saddening.
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
rob young mentions 1998 as being a sea change. maybe where the wire is now is a result of that? the turning away from uk dance culture? they stopped paying attention?

if this issue heralds a return to the days when it was more engaged with musical 'street cultures' in the uk (and theorising about them), rather than dealing with music that was more 'intellectual' in premise, then all the better.
 
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Logos

Ghosts of my life
I buy it every month just because I'm sure I'll find something interesting in there...i don't buy any other music publications at all now.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Relevant- yes. But obviously by no means the be-all-and-end all. I mean they are relevant as a way to further popularise things beyond the at-present limited range of people who are willing to scour message boards and blogs (or myspace or whatever) for new stuff. Scenes don't really need them to work, they can cover themselves via electronic media, however at the moment mass popularity (or even medium level popularity) is still massively helped by print press coverage.
 

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
matt b said:
rob young mentions 1998 as being a sea change.
It was. In dancehall. Relatedly, in UK dance music, 98 was when garage took over.
matt b said:
maybe where the wire is now is a result of that? the turning away from uk dance culture? they stopped paying attention?
It would be good if they covered more reggae, grime, dubstep, techno, house cos I like those genres and they're under-served in print. I'd like less of the art wank and jazz cos I don't like those genres much. I suspect they won't change cos as Dave says they have to cater to their demographic - they're up against Straight No Chaser (errrr is that still going?) and FRoots as much as NME and MixWank.

As to "who pitched the Wire on dubstep" - as I mentioned elesewhere I know one of their columnists repeatedly pitched a dubstep piece but was told "we've done grime" and got a wall of indifference. The Wire should have covered dubstep properly ages ago because it's ripe for theorising and, well, I think they'd have sold copies (though not as many as from the Sonic Youth story, I would imagine).

And obviously they should have got Martin Clark to do the main story with Kek-W and Steve Barker doing side pieces.
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
straight no chaser is still going. its still worth reading for what it covers, although its not as intellectual as the wire. and its not meant to be. i dont imagine it being to the taste of many people posting here though.
 

Rachel Verinder

Well-known member
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
The Wire was so much better when it was a straightforward jazz magazine.
When Richard Cook edited it you could expect good, substantial articles on everyone from Sidney Bechet to Serge Chaloff.
Reading the Wire these days you'd be forgiven for thinking that jazz started with Albert Ayler.
The fact that they couldn't even hold on to (or actively worked to discourage?) writers like Penman and Watson speaks for itself.
There are decent writers still on there but the magazine style is clearly cramping them.
I was blacklisted from writing for the magazine after I wrote a Stereolab review which was less than worshipful (and was never published) with the advice that: "we don't criticise Friends Of The Wire."
So I am biased. But you can understand why.
I don't rule out the strong possibility that the activity of us bloggers has circumscribed them somewhat.
 
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