Finally: Now That's What I Call Vocal Grime

[Blackdown]

They are if you are a major label that has never bothered to do anything to help people who make the music in the first place. Suddenly people turn round and ask for the money they should be getting, rather than what you think you can par them off with.

the problem is a comp like that could quickly start to cost £20k in advances alone (a price that doesnt include manufacturing costs, royalties or marketing) which given grime's mainstream sales, makes it economically unviable.

basically grime has made no lasting impact in the mainstream pop market or mainstream hip hop's audience - its fanbase seems to be either its UK grass roots fans or international dissensians (for the want of a better expression). neither of these fanbases will give you US hip hop-like sales.

anyway if people are looking for 'the next thing' it's not dubstep, surely it's funky house?

 

[mms]

i just typed a whole load of stuff but it got lost. anyway, i dont think that whole 'real uk hip hop' and 'real uk answer to hip hop' stuff ever really helped, in fact i think it put the wrong idea into a lot of peoples heads about what grime was meant to be/sound like.
.

well there is a distinction there, and it's exciting enough for people to listen but they didn't.

i
i didnt mean 2step had vanished, more that in terms of the hardcore continuum etc etc that dissensus posters seem quite fond of, grime was the 'next step' as it were in that tradition, .

no i think people saw it as different really, a pull away, musically and it's aims.i dont think dubstep is the next step either mind you.

and i cant help thinking that dubstep is in fact the next. if only in terms of popularity. it at least has a club presence, and while i doubt people really get their rocks off dancing to it, it does seem to be proving to be a pretty succesful club music on its own terms. dubstep might be less exciting in some ways, but the basic quality control seems a lot higher, and where grime really wants to count - vocal tunes- it still doesnt have much quality control. it reminds me of what someone once wrote about why they preferred the stooges to so much punk, cos punk had more ambition and energy than actual ability, sometimes i think something similar about grime. and no, im not some hipster type, i still buy records, mixtapes etc etc, but it has always been hard since i got into it to find many vocal tracks that i would ever really want to spend £6-7 quid on, something which i would imagine is its biggest hurdle.

yeah it is kinda popular with the kind of indie east london kids but all these arguements can be pretty much covered by what stelfox said earlier i reckon.
grime was kinda better when you couldn't define it and it didnt want to be defined. now it's defined and there is a model people just seem to replicate that model and it hasn't moved on.

 

[Logan Sama]

the problem is a comp like that could quickly start to cost £20k in advances alone (a price that doesnt include manufacturing costs, royalties or marketing) which given grime's mainstream sales, makes it economically unviable.

basically grime has made no lasting impact in the mainstream pop market or mainstream hip hop's audience - its fanbase seems to be either its UK grass roots fans or international dissensians (for the want of a better expression). neither of these fanbases will give you US hip hop-like sales.

anyway if people are looking for 'the next thing' it's not dubstep, surely it's funky house?

You misunderstand my notion of investment. Grime is INCREDIBLY easy to get for pennies. However if you come into the situation like you are looking to exploit it for financial benefit, people within the scene start remembering all the times they have done things for nothing, and end up wanting between 500-1000 per track advances.

Major and Big Independant labels still don't understand this music at all, and it shows in having Cameo do a CD which advertises Hip Hip, RnB and even RnG but not Grime, and then getting Semtex to do a fully Grime CD.

That's arse backwards.

It is ok though, because for everytime the big labels fuck up, it inspires someone else in the Grime scene to have a go themselves, and when we can afford to do our own projects, then everything will be much healthier.

I am still trying and failing to get just a P&D deal on a compilation CD I am putting together. No one is interested, yet they can pay out big fat advances on other projects.

The level of investment us guys in the scene need is probably equal to the lunch expenses of one executive at these companies. We dont need 20 grand budgets to clear tracks. The labels just need to funnel the money the right way. You cant come into the Grime scene after years of people being broke with your Universal or Sony or Warner licensing contracts and expect people not to want some sort of compensation for the 4 years of unpaid work they have done.

 

[mms]

I am still trying and failing to get just a P&D deal on a compilation CD I am putting together. No one is interested, yet they can pay out big fat advances on other projects.

The level of investment us guys in the scene need is probably equal to the lunch expenses of one executive at these companies. We dont need 20 grand budgets to clear tracks. The labels just need to funnel the money the right way. You cant come into the Grime scene after years of people being broke with your Universal or Sony or Warner licensing contracts and expect people not to want some sort of compensation for the 4 years of unpaid work they have done.

is this a p and d with a distributor on yr own label?

rather than p and d with a label, as this is the wrong way to do it.

i'm suprised you can't get a p and d with a distributor, which ones are you approaching?

 

[mms]

If thats the way grime artists think they can be sure to end up with empty hands. Majors are not interested in your sad story about years of "grafting on road" without any cash. Other artists (probably uk hiphop or other artists pretending to be gime) WILL take the majors money, majors will put out a compilation with them on it instead of the real thing and again grime will have lost.

yes this is true, grime isn't the only genre that this happens to, grafting with no cash, bands do this, anyone else to a lesser or greater extent do this. it depends on the climate and quality of the band though.

 

[Logan Sama]

Indie music has a far better infrastructure for "intermediate" level artists to earn a living from their graft. People who are "big" in Grime still earn relatively little, and it is that gap that leads to artists asking for decent sized advances when major labels approach them.

And no, P&D with a distributor is not forthcoming. They all actually advised me to seek out a label to put it out for me. And then labels weren't really interested in doing anything with Grime.

I have a CD here sitting down, everything has been signed off. Just need a marketing budget and P&D.

It's actually ridiculous that so many people have rejected it before even looking at a tracklisting or listening to the CD.

Oh well, such is life.

 

[Tactics]

too much to reply on so I'll keep it brief...

its a well mixed cd

lol

 

[Logan Sama]

Is it even out yet?

 

[Sick Boy]

dubstep might be less exciting in some ways, but the basic quality control seems a lot higher, and where grime really wants to count - vocal tunes- it still doesnt have much quality control. it reminds me of what someone once wrote about why they preferred the stooges to so much punk, cos punk had more ambition and energy than actual ability, sometimes i think something similar about grime. .

Skream tried to tell me the same thing once when he was in Toronto last, and I don't agree. The quality of vocal tracks coming out are still fairly high -- in my experience as a DJ I've never had a period where I felt there weren't any good grime tracks out. Listen to any grime show on Rinse FM or to Logan's show, and the quality is still there.

Skream was talking to me about dubstep having higher production values than grime, which may have its merits to people who are concerned with the techy-aspects of music, but still I would still rather skank out at a grime rave than a dubstep rave any day of the week.

I like dubstep. A lot of it is pants though, high production levels and all. The reason dubstep is bigger than grime right now is because it was able to reach out to middle-class, white 20somethings, i.e. the ones that will nerd out and get really into following the scene closely, and hearing every track. No disrespect to this massive at all, this demographic has typically been the sureshot for making any genre successful. I am, after all, one of these people on the grime side of the coin.

So I like, and don't like Semtex's mixtape. It's good because he rounded up a lot of the tracks that make the genre endearing, and though they are old, it doesn't so much matter because the mainstream public doesn't know what's old or what's new. I don't like it, because like many others, he's only perpetuating the idea that there are no good tunes out right now.

 

[Blackdown]

You cant come into the Grime scene after years of people being broke with your Universal or Sony or Warner licensing contracts and expect people not to want some sort of compensation for the 4 years of unpaid work they have done.

this is exactly the problem. grime MCs think the majors owe them money. when a major gives an artist an advance, it's not payback for all the graft they've done, it's effectively a loan that the artist then has to *earn* back. so few MCs are willing to do what they're told (which is something you have to accept for someone to give you £100,000) and work really hard in the mainstream for years on end.

anyway i dont want to be slagging grime off too much because i still think the music is amazing.

i also think it's bullshit that you can't get a P&D deal Logan. Have you tried Baked Goods? They have been good to me and my label.

 

[Logan Sama]

You think it is bullshit?

Cool.

 

[Logan Sama]

Oh, and Baked Goods didn't even do me the courtesy of replying to the 3 emails I sent them, when I was advised to contact them by Chris. Maybe you can get him to show you the reply I got from ST as well? That was a barrel of laughs.

The reason why artists turn round and ask for advances for such compilations is because when people they see working with them regularly for equally as little money as they are approach them about doing something, they are happy to work with them, often for nothing. When Scorcher rings Rapid or Target for a beat, the only issue is where to link up, not how much they are willing to pay, and how many points of the publishing they will get.

When faceless multi-million pound labels approach them with a pitiful budget to put together an amusingly bad compilation which they have no idea how to effectively market and advertise anyway, they will take advances out of them because they know it won't earn them a brass farthing off the back end. This has nothing to do with album advances. This thread is about a compilation, so 100k is a meaningless sum.

MC's "doing as they are told" was a lovely line. Maybe they should know their place as well, hey?

Yes, you convince me more and more as you write that you have no grasp of our music or the culture that produces it.

 

[MATT MAson]

Unfortunately that's how a lot of majors think Logan. The Sex Pistols were signed and dropped twice by majors without putting anything out because the labels thought they were a bunch of wankers who wouldn't do what they were told, and the same thing has been going on through different scenes ever since. A lot of majors think the same thing about grime artists, it seems to me they are inherently suspicous of undergrounds scenes, it's a much more risky bet than a manufactured pop group.

There is this feeling in the grime scene, and I think its born out of frustration rather than arrogance, that majors owe the artists money. But it's just not going to happen given the current climate in the music industry. Grime has been tarred with so many brushes, you'd be crazy as a major to invest any serious money in it.

On another note, I'm happy to see Blackdown finally acknowledging funky house is the next big thing, that only took five years!

 

[Poisonous Dart]

This is crazy!

Damn, Logan...that's fucked up. Makes me wanna get on a plane to the UK and start slappin' the shit outta suited bastards...although, I do enough of that HERE. One.

 

[Logan Sama]

I genuinely don't want majors involved. Seeing the money earnt then IMMEDIATELY siphoned out to shareholders rather than re-invested into the scene hurts me.

We really need those intermediate independant labels to exist who are there to bring through talented artists on a level that they deserve and can realistically perform at. Throwing a bunch of kids who have never worked in music before into the pressures of delivering on a six figure advance is madness anyway.

Funky House must be the next big thing Matt, people are getting shot at the raves! You know that's the official seal of approval!

 

[MATT MAson]

I agree, the only way grime will have a future is through a long-term, sustained and gradual development of the scene, not via the majors cheque books, which should rightly be supporting gun-toting funky house artists...

 

[Logan Sama]

I await the new Vice magazine funky house "shoot" with Supa D mixing in a bullet proof vest

"Like.... a bunch of black kids all go and rave to like house music.... but they are fucking shooting each other in there man! Some wild shit! *draws another pull on crack pipe*"

 

[Blackdown]

MC's "doing as they are told" was a lovely line. Maybe they should know their place as well, hey?

Yes, you convince me more and more as you write that you have no grasp of our music or the culture that produces it.

oh come on you know what i mean. MCs know about their art form. managers know how to get you into the commerical music industry and how to profit from it. they're not the same thing - if they were grime would be a massive commerical success already. too many MCs aren't willing to take managers' advice, yet want all the benefits of the mainstream music industry. c'mon you know MCs are flakey - why else did you stop promoting mix CDs that never materialised?

yes, you convince me more and more as you write about my writing that you aren't that nice a person. but despite this i'm still going to send emails to baked goods and Bleep on behalf of your CD project.

 

[Blackdown]

On another note, I'm happy to see Blackdown finally acknowledging funky house is the next big thing, that only took five years!

check my pitchfork column today (US time). hold tight you...

 

[micmack]

Grime Time?

I agree, the only way grime will have a future is through a long-term, sustained and gradual development of the scene, not via the majors cheque books, which should rightly be supporting gun-toting funky house artists...

This is very true. Surely Grime, if it's going to develop, needs to be at a grassroots level, where an independant Grime industry grows organically to become sustainable.

I've just read 'Bass Culture' (Lloyd Bradley) and, althought there are huge problems comparing JA in the 60's / 70's to the UK today, what comes through that book imo, was the sense of the scene being led by the people at the dancehalls.

I've been to two Grime gigs (A Run the Road in 2005 and Straight Outta Bethnal
in early 2006). There was a very young enthusiastic mixed crowd at the first and mainly white 20+'s at the second. These demographics point to me more like a confused and dare I say it, contrived scene.

I am a fan of Grime music (and do feel that maybe more effort should be put into developing Grime instrumentals) and it's interesting that Grime is being discussed more again at Dissensus, after 3-4 months of it barely keeping it's head afloat. Why is this? Nobody is talking about new tunes!