What is 'street' in relation to music?

[nomadologist]

Nah, it's really something academics/"far leftists" tried to force on average Americans, who by and large didn't use it and didn't care. Most of our satirical media like Simpsons or South Park were developed to make relentless fun of PC-isms like "African-American." I personally think there is a time and place to use "African-American," but it's not the same as saying "black" and they're not interchangeable.

P.S. As for that man's anecdote: I can see an American who is trying to seem sophisticated, or who is trying very hard not to offend this man, using "African-American", because it's seen as the more "genteel" option here, I suppose, by wishy-washy democratic voters who aren't really very liberal.

 

[Mr. Tea]

To be honest, I could never see "African-Americans With Attitude" selling all that well...

 

[Tactics]

I think you're about 15 years late with that. No one says African-American anymore. That was back during the PC heyday.

my relatives out in the States say different but hey I guess you would know. if true that's a DAMN shame...it's all going to pot

In the U.S. it would be considered pretty tacky to call any music made by anyone with "roots" in music made by black people "black music", mostly because it's important to reserve black identity for black people, for obvious reasons.

I find/found the 'one drop' rule pretty tacky also

It annoys me that there's a "Music Of Black Origin" award in the UK, for two reasons - firstly, almost all popular music has at least some black origins somewhere along the line (blues->rock'n'roll, anyone? I'm sure this point has been made often enough to have passed in to the realm of cliche), and secondly because rap and r'n'b aren't exactly under-exposed, minority-interest genres these days. Last I heard, hip-hop and its various derivatives constitute the biggest selling style of music in the world.

Edit: in response to Tactics' point about Asian music, I would say that there's a very big difference between that and black music in Western (US/UK) culture, since black music has been a big thing in America among certain white groups (jazz fans) for nearly a century now, and has become inextricably intertwined with 'white' music in the form of, well, most modern rock and dance music, not to mention reggae, ska, hip-hip etc. etc., so black music (in the most general sense) sounds very familiar to white people, even people who don't really listen to that sort of music much (like me), whereas Asian music doesn't have that history of cross-fertilisation and therefore still sounds 'exotic' to most non-Asian.

the MOBO awards were primarily designed to 1) reward black/african british artists (read UK) shunned by the entrenched UK music establishment and 2) to simply give pride to a ppl group whose musical achievements were felt to have never been properly recognised...hold on did I type the same thing twice lol?

I type primarily cos from then of course the awards have gone on to be quite shameful (though I still believe in them - it just needs some brave decisions)

just because the music is familiar and popular to many still doesn't stop it from being black music

many ppl pratice acupuncture but it's still a physiotherapy technique pioneered by the great physician Imhotep...whether or not ppl realise it or not (which is my crucial point)

 

[Guybrush]

You are all right in that it is not possible to hedge a watertight definition of ‘urban’ or ‘street’, but as the two terms, evidently, are used frequently by average folks, they must convey something to them. Ordinary people care precious little about how solidly grounded their concepts are, in my experience.

 

[nomadologist]

What is the one drop rule? And where do your relatives live?? I literally have not heard someone in real life (I'm not talking about TV here, I'm talking about real life) call a black colleague or a black friend or a black person "African-American" in probably 10 + years.

 

[Guybrush]

Diasporan?

 

[nomadologist]

Wait a second--I just looked up "one drop rule." What have I said that you could possibly attribute to a belief in the one drop rule?? Ridiculous.

 

[nomadologist]

Diasporan?

That'll be next...

 

[nomadologist]

You would have to be very naive to believe that you can call a GENRE OF MUSIC "black" ipso facto, just because the first people to perform that music happened to be black.

Christina Aguilera is a white/latino girl who sings R&B. Not "black music." That's utterly trivializing.

 

[nomadologist]

While we're at it, should we call all electronic music "white" because most of it is originally Kraftwerk (or some other German electronic pioneer) inspired?

 

[Guybrush]

No, I’m not suggesting we should use these terms. However, we are all—well, most of us—living in societies where words are defined not by erudites o), but by people who use the words ‘incorrectly’ because they fulfil a certain need. Obviously, a lot of people find the terms ‘black music’ and ‘urban’ useful despite their being very vague.

 

[nomadologist]

Sorry, Guybrush, I was mostly responding to Tactics up there. I understand why "urban" fulfills a need, and I happen to not mind that it's usually co-opted by industries and turned into something cheesy. "Urban" markets respond to a lot of things that industries call "urban"--otherwise, Baby Phat or Sean John wouldn't be multi-million dollar clothing empires.

 

[john eden]

Big up to ford.anglia for the list and some historical perspective (not that his has been missing from other contributions).

I shall have to add Oi and "street punk" to the list at this point. Street music which was almost exclusively white and virtually defined itself as such. Which reinforces the idea that "street" is more about class and location rather than race...

 

[Tactics]

hold on...

That'll be next...

what's meant by this? is it an in joke? and why the sudden rush of anger? I was actually agreeing with you when I mentioned 'one drop'...the ridiculous of things...calm down

Christina performs R&B which is a form of black music....what's confusing about that?

I understand why "urban" fulfills a need, and I happen to not mind that it's usually co-opted by industries and turned into something cheesy. "Urban" markets respond to a lot of things that industries call "urban"--otherwise, Baby Phat or Sean John wouldn't be multi-million dollar clothing empires.

neatly written

in regard to this - imo the ends don't neccessarily justify the means...IMO (just had to state that again lol)

No, I’m not suggesting we should use these terms. However, we are all—well, most of us—living in societies where words are defined not by erudites o), but by people who use the words ‘incorrectly’ because they fulfil a certain need. Obviously, a lot of people find the terms ‘black music’ and ‘urban’ useful despite their being very vague.

good points

sometimes I sway this way as society (society as in dominant western/european society) tends to be BUILT on wrongness so to speak lol...a point which could also be levelled at my points and arguments

but a part of me also wants to do away with a lot of 'crap' (the terms urban, black music, street, alternative, rock, dance in their modern incarnation, can be viewed as this) and start allllllllll over again (which would correspond with MUCH wider changes in larger society aswell)

I move between the two

 

[nomadologist]

what's meant by this? is it an in joke? and why the sudden rush of anger? I was actually agreeing with you when I mentioned 'one drop'...the ridiculous of things...calm down

Christina performs R&B which is a form of black music....what's confusing about that?

I'm not angry at all, just trying to understand what you meant. It wasn't very clear, or I couldn't make sense of it. I guess it's good that you agree.

But I still take issue with "racializing" formal musical structures. Is music performed on pianos "white" because the piano is an instrument invented by and originally only played by white people for centuries?

It's a slippery slope once you start anthropomorphizing music this way...

 

[Tactics]

It's a slippery slope once you start anthropomorphizing music this way...

yes it is...but its a good thing!...though with the way ppl and things are...its also not...hence my edited point further up

sometimes its hard to 'be' clear while typing - you get me lol?

beef can easily happen over someone getting mad over an email...stupid yes but also understandable

 

[tate]

Nah, it's really something academics/"far leftists" tried to force on average Americans, who by and large didn't use it and didn't care. Most of our satirical media like Simpsons or South Park were developed to make relentless fun of PC-isms like "African-American."

So, you'd reduce Ramona Edelin, Jesse Jackson, Benjamin Hooks and numerous other black leaders to the category of "academics/far leftists" who "tried to force" "PC-isms" on "average Americans"?

 

[nomadologist]

No, it's not that simple. But I think "African-American" is an easy answer to a much bigger, and more deeply rooted problem. It's a trivializing way to deal with something that IS very very important. It's a band-aid on a bullet wound.

I think the motivations were good for the first wave of PC fervor, but the solutions most of the major players offered up were simply insufficient. I think you could change the customs, you could have everyone in the U.S. saying "African-American" instead of black, and you'd still have racism running rampant.

We've talked before on this forum about speaking for a "community", haven't we? I think we've gotten past the idea of someone like Jesse Jackson being able to unilaterally be the voice of all black Americans.

 

[nomadologist]

"academics/far leftists" who "tried to force" "PC-isms" on "average Americans"?

I also put "far leftists" in quotation marks, if you'll note, for a reason. Namely, because I don't think they were anywhere near far left enough.

 

[nomadologist]

yes it is...but its a good thing!...though with the way ppl and things are...its also not...hence my edited point further up

sometimes its hard to 'be' clear while typing - you get me lol?

beef can easily happen over someone getting mad over an email...stupid yes but also understandable

definitely true. i'm sure you see how trying to stake a claim to all music that is formally similar to music that was once performed by black people as somehow being definitively "black" is unfair even in its attempt to be fair, to give credit where it's due?

it's really an essentialist point of view, to think that there's something essentially "black" about R&B, or hip-hop.