What is 'street' in relation to music?

[Guybrush]

An astute observation from academia’s wacky 90s:

Sun People. Africans, Asians, and natives of Latin America and the Caribbean. The term was coined by Dr. Leonard Jeffries, chairman [sic] of the Afro-American Studies Department of the City University of New York, who theorizes that humanity is divided into two principal groups, “sun people” and “ice people” (the European-American descendants of northern Ice Age peoples). The two groups have diametrically opposed value systems: ice people are materialistic, egotistical, and exploitative, while sun people are humanistic, communal, and caring.

 

[shudder]

does that make me a sun person or an ice person, I wonder? sheesh, what dross!

As for "african american", I think it's not quite as dead as you think, nomodologist. In public/official discourse, I'd bet that "African American" outnumbers "Black" somewhat, and in regular day to day speech, "Black" outnumbers "African American". But I'd bet you'd find a non-trivial usage of "African American" in day to day speech where one of the interlocutors is white and talking to someone they don't know well or someone from an unfamiliar class. People our age probably don't use it much though.

 

[nomadologist]

yeah, Shudder--as I said before up there, I think there's a time and place for using "African-American", and there's nothing "wrong" with using it now. I do have a problem with dogmatically trying to claim anyone who doesn't say "African-American" in lieu of "black" is racist. The time for using "African-American" is when you're not sure what the acceptable term is. in any situation where it's important to remain polite and to defer to the group, whose preferences you may not know. I'm just saying that I think the PC warriors who wanted to police all speech back in the day have lost the battle in everyday speech.

 

[Chris]

it's really an essentialist point of view, to think that there's something essentially "black" about R&B, or hip-hop.

Hmmm...

I don't think hip hop is essentially black... but it's still a dominantly black artform in the ends conceived in the overall effect of the sum of it's parts... The combination of the imagery, feel, etc, constitute an expression that is still reflective of, and rooted in black youth culture.

There's nothing so inherently "black" about rap music that it can't be deteritorrialized by another culture and re-imagined to suit that's culture's image and sensibities. (just look at the different costumes that techno and rock have worn over the years...) However, the reason I'd still call hip hop a "black style," (as politically-incorrect as that sounds as I type it), is in the difference between rap's foray into the white mainstream, and rock 'n roll's. Despite hip hop's popularity and absorption into mainstream America, most popular hip hop is still primarily made by black artists, and is still the most popular style amongst black American youth (and it's feel, content, slang, beats, etc. still reflect current black American trends and taste). Not just that... surprisingly, unless you count rap-metal, the form hasn't yet been turned into something more "white" to suit white middle-America, despite it's popularity (although there is the theory that the emphasis on bling and gangsterism is perpetuating a cheap, bad stereotype that suburban kids buy into).

Even white hip hop artists, instead of changing their music to suit stereotypical "white" sensibilities (unless you count half-assed, ironic hipster hip hop novelty acts), usually seem to strive to be accepted in the "real" scene, and make music that plays to black-influenced sensibilities, as opposed to splitting off into a more "white" form of hip hop completely distinct from it's origins and original feel, as was the case with young white America co-opting rock 'n roll.

To me, a style of music can be credited to an ethnicity or culture, when it could only have been conceived by that particular culture in it's particular place and time. The style might eventually become a universal meme, and some of it's offshoots may stray so far from their original source that they evolve into a completely new form, only reflective of it's current milieu (which is IMO, why rock is a "white" style, while rock 'n roll is a "black" style), but a style's original form belongs to the culture that birthed it. (I'm not saying only the originators can use it, but it would be kind of insulting to say for instance that jazz or blues weren't originally a product of black America).

 

[tate]

Nah, it's really something academics/"far leftists" tried to force on average Americans, who by and large didn't use it and didn't care. Most of our satirical media like Simpsons or South Park were developed to make relentless fun of PC-isms like "African-American."

So, you'd reduce Ramona Edelin, Jesse Jackson, Benjamin Hooks and numerous other black leaders to the category of "academics/far leftists" who "tried to force" "PC-isms" on "average Americans"?

No, it's not that simple. But I think "African-American" is an easy answer to a much bigger, and more deeply rooted problem. It's a trivializing way to deal with something that IS very very important. It's a band-aid on a bullet wound.

But your account of the origin of the term "African-American" was a caricature: the term came from the black community itself, and from specific thinkers, in a particular context, at a specific time, for clearly articulated reasons. This was before the term "politically correct" even existed.

Putting aside historical details, your opinion that the proposed term "African-American" was merely "an easy answer to a much bigger, much more deeply rooted problem" (your words), well yeah, no kidding, Edelin and Hooks and the rest of the black leadership who proposed the term in the late 1980s were perfectly well aware of the "deeply rooted problems" that they as blacks faced, lol. And absolutely no one thought that changing the term would by itself eradicate racism – that would be ridiculous — it was part of a larger process, with many goals. I wouldn't use your word, "trivializing," to describe that attempt, personally.

 

[nomadologist]

Sure it was originally coined by certain black leaders/thinkers, Tate, but it ended up being co-opted by politicians for very divisive purposes. I know the original people who coined it didn't think it would eradicate racism, but that's what the public discourse surrounding the term ended up focusing on, for the worse...

I think the motivations are good, but I do think in the end you get a politically trivial sort of gesture on the part of the co-opters of "African-American" as prefered nomenclature

 

[nomadologist]

Hmmm...

I don't think hip hop is essentially black... but it's still a dominantly black artform in the ends conceived in the overall effect of the sum of it's parts... The combination of the imagery, feel, etc, constitute an expression that is still reflective of, and rooted in black youth culture.

There's nothing so inherently "black" about rap music that it can't be deteritorrialized by another culture and re-imagined to suit that's culture's image and sensibities. (just look at the different costumes that techno and rock have worn over the years...) However, the reason I'd still call hip hop a "black style," (as politically-incorrect as that sounds as I type it), is in the difference between rap's foray into the white mainstream, and rock 'n roll's. Despite hip hop's popularity and absorption into mainstream America, most popular hip hop is still primarily made by black artists, and is still the most popular style amongst black American youth (and it's feel, content, slang, beats, etc. still reflect current black American trends and taste). Not just that... surprisingly, unless you count rap-metal, the form hasn't yet been turned into something more "white" to suit white middle-America, despite it's popularity (although there is the theory that the emphasis on bling and gangsterism is perpetuating a cheap, bad stereotype that suburban kids buy into).

Even white hip hop artists, instead of changing their music to suit stereotypical "white" sensibilities (unless you count half-assed, ironic hipster hip hop novelty acts), usually seem to strive to be accepted in the "real" scene, and make music that plays to black-influenced sensibilities, as opposed to splitting off into a more "white" form of hip hop completely distinct from it's origins and original feel, as was the case with young white America co-opting rock 'n roll.

To me, a style of music can be credited to an ethnicity or culture, when it could only have been conceived by that particular culture in it's particular place and time. The style might eventually become a universal meme, and some of it's offshoots may stray so far from their original source that they evolve into a completely new form, only reflective of it's current milieu (which is IMO, why rock is a "white" style, while rock 'n roll is a black style), but a style's original form belongs to the culture that birthed it. (I'm not saying only the originators can use it, but it would be kind of insulting to say for instance that jazz or blues wasn't a originally a product of black America).

I agree with everything you've said. "Essentialist" is a term used to denote any idea that goes to origins as essences to describe phenomena. I have no problem saying hip-hop is primarly "black" music in terms of the culture it sprang out of, the people who mostly made or make it, etc., but I do have a huge problem trying to say "black music" is some sort of coherent whole that is somehow imbued with the "essence" of blackness, and that is outside of the same consideration we'd give genres made mostly by white people, or genres that historically have been written by more white artists than black/hispanic/etc.

It makes no sense to me to make "black music" different from "popular music." What is "white music," in that case? Classical music only?

 

[nomadologist]

To me, anthropomorphizing music this way so that music is imbued with the racial essence of the musician smacks of just another reason to claim historical ownership, or to start a turf war, or just silly paternalism in general...

 

[Sick Boy]

Dissensus definetely isn't street.

 

[nomadologist]

is anything on the internet "street"? very few people poor people in the U.S. have internet at home

 

[Logan Sama]

Something which always interests me is the international link between "black" music, which often is stronger than the link between localised music genres from different social groups.

The strong link between Grime artists and the inspiration from Hip Hop and Dancehall, as opposed to being inspired by British musical genres and groups outside of their immediate genre, for example.

 

[Tyro]

is anything on the internet "street"? very few people poor people in the U.S. have internet at home

I used to think that the RWD forum was 'street' untill I started reading posts like these:

''Lilly Allen has been down with The Newham Generals since her first mixtape dropped''

and

''Hadoken's beats put most weak grime beats coming out at the moment to shame''

It's all too easy for press agents to hype stuff on forums in order to lend them some 'street' or artistic credibility.It's also unfortunate that this forum is increasingly becoming full of this type of thing.The next time you read a topic headed ''Can stuff like Boxcutter be considered outsider art'' think for a moment about why someone would make such a ridiculous observation.

 

[Logan Sama]

No one could EVER say those things on RWD forums without getting shit on from a GREAT height.

Lily Allen? Hadouken?

Behave.

 

[ripley]

Something which always interests me is the international link between "black" music, which often is stronger than the link between localised music genres from different social groups.

The strong link between Grime artists and the inspiration from Hip Hop and Dancehall, as opposed to being inspired by British musical genres and groups outside of their immediate genre, for example.

What's interesting as well, though, is that that link pretty much only goes outward from the US 'black' music scene. US hiphop is both popular and important to oppositional cultures (especially black ones) around the world, but music from black and/or oppositional cultures outside the US don't get much respect in a lot of black America.

 

[nomadologist]

What's interesting as well, though, is that that link pretty much only goes outward from the US 'black' music scene. US hiphop is both popular and important to oppositional cultures (especially black ones) around the world, but music from black and/or oppositional cultures outside the US don't get much respect in a lot of black America.

that's a really really good point, ripley. never thought of it that way...

 

[gumdrops]

its always been that way though - from bob marley or fela kuti failing to break the main black market in the states, through to all the british 'urban' dance genres that were hyped in the US but never really captured the market everyone hoped for (jungle, 2 step, etc etc).

 

[nomos]

What's interesting as well, though, is that that link pretty much only goes outward from the US 'black' music scene. US hiphop is both popular and important to oppositional cultures (especially black ones) around the world, but music from black and/or oppositional cultures outside the US don't get much respect in a lot of black America.

There's a very good book that deals with this at length called Global Noise, edited by Tony Mitchell. It looks at Hip Hop-derived music cultures in various parts of the world including Africa, Britain, Australia, Quebec... He makes a similar point, framing the exchange in terms of Black American cultural imperialism (his phrasing) within global Hip Hop, arguing that American Hip Hop sets itself up as the only possible source of that music in its authentic form. (Of course, on a smaller scale British music scenes do the same.) Interesting that Mitchell is Australian. Like Canada (but more so by virtue of geography), Australia occupies an awkward inclusion/exclusion position vis a vis US/UK developments, an inside track balanced by reminders of its ultimate outsider status. It creates space for slightly different critical perspectives.

 

[mistersloane]

I was in the Virgin record shop with my nephew this weekend in Camden, and looking through the 'urban' section, I saw Dionne Warwick's Greatest Hits, and I thought of this thread.

 

[Tactics]

this thread is still alive?!?!

damn - I'll have to check this tomorrow...

 

[luka]

Word, Mr Tea. It's pretty trivializing to pretend that the history of pop isn't full of parallels to the history of "black music", anyway, and equally trivializing to pretend that anything for these reasons is "black music."

sweet thread