Hyperfrank's Badness homophobia post

[baboon2004]

So by 'Kill battyboy' he means...um....?

 

[dHarry]

Yes, and only because I can't assume he could mean anything other than black people by saying black people.

Are you really claiming that "kill battyboy" is anything like the use of gay-meaning-generally-bad-or-unpleasant (as if that's ok itself), as if he really means "I don't like things that are generally distateful to me, personally - kids, insert your own personal examples here - without prejudice to gays specifically" (brap)

[edit - snap, baboon24]

 

[baboon2004]

You're moving from the word 'gay' apparently meaning anything unfavourable (I have issues with that anyways), to ANY word describing gay people (and therefore the concept of homosexuality) being a substitute for something unfavourable.

And besides, aren't we patronising Badness in saying that he's somehow sort of not saying what he really obviously is saying, which is 'Kill homosexual people'? He's even using the word 'battyboy' rather than 'gay' to make it very clear to any doubters that he isn't using 'gay' in any sense other than to denote homosexuals!

 

[Sick Boy]

Are you really claiming that "kill battyboy" is anything like the use of gay-meaning-generally-bad-or-unpleasant (as if that's ok itself), as if he really means "I don't like things that are generally distateful to me, personally - kids, insert your own personal examples here - without prejudice to gays specifically" (brap)

[edit - snap, baboon24]

No, I'm just claiming that that's how I get by without being offended.

 

[borderpolice]

Are you really claiming that "kill battyboy" is anything like the use of gay-meaning-generally-bad-or-unpleasant

Moreover, the use of "gay" in this context is often followed by "s and lesbians".

and prefixed by "if you don't like"

 

[ripley]

The difference to me is that the severity of using the term "gay" as an insult is generally considered to be very weak, and not even related to homosexuality in many cases, e.g. "this shit is gay"

I haven't, after all, been using the term nigger since I was 4 years old to describe almost everything unfavourable to me.

It wasn't so long ago that many people DID use nigger to describe unfavorable things. It wasn't so long ago that it was perfectly accepted, socially, for white people to use "nigger" constantly in a derogatory way.

it's stupid to pretend that your own history or current use of a word is some kind of natural, unchangeable state and thus it's just impossible to change it.

things change all the time, and more people deciding to lay off using terms that reinforce that kind of negative association is one way it can change.

 

[Blackdown]

Further to my point about it not just being about what you say in the UK but where you say it, compare Badness' bars at the Rhythm Factory to this:

The British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) has banned Compton rapper the Game from future interviews. The decision comes after a complaint against the BBC was dismissed by the Corporation's governors committee. The complaint stemmed from an interview The Game did last July on The Jo Whiley Show, on BBC Radio 1.

The rapper reportedly caused an uproar when he called gay men "f****ts" and "not real men." Although they labeled the Game's comments as "very offensive, completely unacceptable and clearly homophobic," the committee decided not to taken any action against Whiley because she made a "sincere, full and swift" apology and "distanced herself and the network from The Game's comments." Despite canceling further interviews with the Game, the BBC will not ban the rapper's music.

For the full story log on: http://allhiphop.com/blogs/news/archive/2007/07/26/18313512.aspx

 

[gumdrops]

if the game had said that on westwoods show no one would give a shit.

but i agree he shouldnt have said that on whileys show - its a daytime programme, not a late night one.

 

[Sick Boy]

if the game had said that on westwoods show no one would give a shit.

but i agree he shouldnt have said that on whileys show - its a daytime programme, not a late night one.

Although Westwood himself might get a little offended considering he once told 50 Cent he'd like to bend him over backwards.

 

[hyperfrank]

Would just like to thank the people that looked at what some may of seen as a poor argument and actually looked at the issue rather than making excuses, thats what I wanted and appreciate. Many of your points are right on point and I value your mature input.

 

[vimothy]

THAT SAID, before everyone gets their knickers in a twist, it would do wonders to read up on Jamaican culture and history... getting mad about homophobia in JA is like getting mad about sexism in Muslim culture...

when is it ok for westerners/1st Word to impose their values on the rest of the world? this is an interesting question as radical Islam gets stronger and stronger in numbers in the Mid. East... i mean, their opinions on homosexuals make west indians seem tolerant...

i don't like homophobic lyrics, but i recognize they are a part of jamaican culture. as a non-jamaican, i don't think it's my position to change it...

This post just says it all really

 

[petergunn]

What about racism in the deep south? Was the support for the civil rights movement by northern intellectuals actually disrespectful of southern culture?

i was being sincere when i was asking "when is it ok for westerners/1st Word to impose their values on the rest of the world?", so your analogy doesn't hold, as in your example both parties are of the same culture (american, nevermind the north-south divide...)

seriously, this is something i have been thinking about more and more, when does one take a "live and let live" stance (or at least a cultural relativist stance) and when does one decide there is an absolute "right or wrong" position?

 

[Mr. Tea]

i was being sincere when i was asking "when is it ok for westerners/1st Word to impose their values on the rest of the world?"

Since a culture that doesn't condone the persecution of people based on their sexuality is, in this respect, fundamentally a better society than one which does.

 

[claphands]

You guys should read Donna Hope's Inna Di Dancehall. It's a very balanced, nuanced take on the relationship between slack lyrics and sexual identity politics in Dancehall lyrics.

 

[Gavin]

Since a culture that doesn't condone the persecution of people based on their sexuality is, in this respect, fundamentally a better society than one which does.

Cultures aren't monolithic (and of course gays still face plenty of persecution in "enlightened" western democracies): this is a false dichotomy. There are many people in Jamaican society (and within hip hop culture, and probably grime too, though I don't know of any) that oppose homophobia and other offensive positions from within the "culture." For instance, Rasta consciousness vs. dancehall slackness is a huge ideological split within "reggae culture" (though both agree on homophobia unfortunately). If people really cared about "cleaning up" dancehall/rap/grime, they would spend more time promoting those people working from within instead of excoriating artists. But the people writing slam pieces usually aren't interested in the music at all (although hyperfrank's grime devotion looks sincere) -- they just want an excuse to slam angry threatening black music, and perhaps assuage some liberal guilt, with under-researched, poorly thought-out diatribes.

What I disagree with is western countries banning the tours of certain dancehall figures -- Buju still catches flak from "Boom Bye Bye" even though he recorded it when he was like 16 and disavows its message now. In effect, this is an exercise in cultural imperialism -- reggae is one of Jamaica's chief exports and sources of income, and groups in the U.K. and the U.S. are effectively trying to shape the content of another culture's expression through their economic privilege (and once again, most of these people don't even listen to reggae or dancehall, and know almost nothing about it) by further impoverishing a country still in the throes of imperialism.

Homophobia should be opposed, but I think it's more productive to look at how and why it gets articulated in a music scene. The reggae post on blackdown linked upthread was quite good, especially for pointing out homophobia's link to christianity. Both Jamaica and the U.S. black population are staunchly Christian, which is NEVER brought up. Indeed, if people wanted to end homophobic violence and the attitudes that allow it to happen, they should attack bigoted religion and the politicians that profess to hold it since they have the power.

There's also a connection to masculinity, which is much-talked-about but poorly understood still -- once again, it becomes the proper liberal cover for attacks on aggressive black performers. Hip hop was never about political correctness, it was/is (partially) about taking the dominant ideology and blowing up into an exaggerated cartoon (bling bling anybody?). And good beats of course.

 

[mistersloane]

You're obviously a brilliant fellow and a valuable poster, I didn't mean to sound so harsh ...

And to answer your question, I don't think a male's fear of rape is really an operative criterion here - how often does that actually happen? Especially in comparison to women? "Alpha male" behavior is utterly risible even to many, many straight men, and rejected outright by them, so I don't see that it is some overwhelming fact of nature that we can't get around - alpha male behavior is lame, and we ought to say so as often as possible rather than excuse it or accommodate it. As for the cover of Gay Times, surely humanity is at a point in its history when people - be they gay, female, ethnically 'defined' or else - can put out their own magazines and explore their own imagery without incurring hate or threats of violence and killing?

I didn't say that you were ridiculous, only that justifying hate in the abovementioned ways is.

S'ok man I'm net literate, I understood. If I was misunderstood it's down to my deficiencies in writing.

And, no, we're not at a time where people can put out their own magazines or whatever and not incur threats, not at all. We're not even at at time where people can walk down the street without incurring threats. My point with that though is to say that I think people hate not queers but the portrayal of queers - the very idea of them - and given the portrayal of them, literally the idea of them in people's heads - as weak, as hairdressers, as innuendo led comedians and make-up wearing bints, y'know, I can see where that hate comes from. It comes from hating the weak. I hate them too. I hate how homosexuals are portrayed. I hate the very term, and the culture that has arisen from that oppression...I hate what people do to themselves in order to be accepted by a fucking society that doesn't even exist. It sickens me. But I couldn't come outright and say 'I hate gays' on my first post because that would lead me to get banned, and being banned for...self-loathing...that would be weird, so I'm justifying it slightly, and saying that if I can see that hatred within myself, it's quite easy to understand it in others.

I think it's much easier to fear rape if you are able to perpetrate it, and, where I drink, alpha male culture is still very much alive and well. I think it's hard for people to talk about, it's obviously hard, a large, large section of the world wants to kill homosexuals. I'm not saying these ideas aren't risible - or even that they are risible - I'm just trying to point out where bigotry might come from without getting into ideas of 'cultural differences' or 'religion', which I think sidetrack the nature of the subject, i.e. the basic question, which is 'people hate poofs, why?'.

 

[rockypoppy2]

i dont think the idea of killing gays is that prevalent in grime anyway - so badness went off on one once, and there are several references to battyboy etc... which are considered more as general slurs, but apart from that grime mc's dont seem to be on any kind of persecution tip with anyone really, apart from all the posturing


logan, you dont like posturing but you put out the war report?

 

[msoes]

the badness thing didnt annoy me as much as rwdforums reaction to hyperfranks post. that was just depressing. i didnt realise how prevalent anti homosexual beliefs still are.

 

[sodiumnightlife]

Prety much every male teenager is hyper homophobic. Its the easiest and one of the most damaging slurs to use against somebody. That's my experience growing up anyhow.

 

[Logan Sama]

logan, you dont like posturing but you put out the war report?

Yes I did. I document the music which is made. It was an important development at that time in the music and required compiling.

Hardly like I exploited it for my own personal financial gain.