Worst Mistake in History of Human Race

[zhao]

all of this is entirely human. look at what we do to one another

ever been to one of those medieval torture museums? i went to that one in Rothenberg where that cannibal guy who cut of that other guy's penis lived. on the Tauber? i think...

i've said before that human beings are capable of behaving like angels or monsters, the entire spectrum from graceful empathy to horrifying cruelty -- it just depends on the situation.

so to say "human nature" is cruel and evil is just as absurd as saying it is loving and peaceful.

remember that failure of an argument that humans are selfish by nature because if 4 people are in a room all starving and there is only 1 piece of bread they would all fight for it?

to that i say what if 4 people are in a room and have just taken ecstasy? observations of them would lead to the conclusion that human "nature" is blissfully happy.

 

[nomadologist]

I'm not saying we're 100% evil and blood lusty, but that's definitely part of who we are. If you're going by observation.

That's why the non-organic body is such a lofty goal, right?

 

[matt b]

As for Matt B....

ah, it must be so exciting joining your first discussion board

 

[vimothy]

Some friends of mine got into a large and long spat with some UK anarcho-primmies after publishing this piss-taking leaflet about them:

http://www.stewarthomesociety.org/gba.htm

That leaflet - OTM

 

[nomadologist]

I actually have no idea what the leaflet is talking about. I guess I haven't met enough "anarcho-primmies"

 

[Mr. Tea]

That phrase is giving me an image in my head of a sort of cross between G. G. Allin and Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall.

 

[dHarry]

D&G explicitly state that drugged & S&M bodies are botched, failed, cancerous attempts at BwOs.

 

[nomadologist]

where?

EDIT: I am not at home right now, so I do not have a copy of MP to look at. I explicitly seem to remember this one passage (you can find all kinds of references to it on the internet) where they talk about how the only real "cheats" to the BwO are S&M, heroin, and there's one other thing I completely forget...of course, not all drugged or sado-masochistic bodies are the BwO, but these are methods they endorse.

I am willing to defer if you can show me where they say the opposite, since it's been a while.

 

[nomadologist]

Thank god for wikipedia. This is what I think the deal is: any BwO can be "full", "empty", or "cancerous", and you can be either a cancerous, full, or empty BwO depending on how "productively" you are able to maneuver your drug addiction/fetishism.

 

[nomadologist]

Also, check out this protracted argument on another forum so we don't have to get into it:

http://www.cross-x.com/vb/showthread.php?t=950065

 

[zhao]

Thank god for wikipedia. This is what I think the deal is: any BwO can be "full", "empty", or "cancerous", and you can be either a cancerous, full, or empty BwO depending on how "productively" you are able to maneuver your drug addiction/fetishism.

that's what i already SAID. sigh...

Even though any form of desire can be produced on it, the empty BwO is non-productive. The full BwO is the healthy BwO; it is productive, but not petrified in its organ-ization. The cancerous BwO is caught in a pattern of endless reproduction of the self-same pattern.

particularly:

The cancerous BwO is caught in a pattern of endless reproduction of the self-same pattern

which sounds like heroin abuse, S/M and Terminator to me.

 

[Mr. Tea]

...or an obsessive-compulsive knitting enthusiast?

 

[nomadologist]

yeah, but becoming a BwO through heroin abuse is fine as long as you "get there" to productivity, as long as you don't become cancerous...check out that link to the argument on Cross-X, I think that one person makes a good point--D&G were sweating Burroughs so bad until it got them negative backlash, then D decided to make it clear he was not "endorsing drug addiction"

 

[nomadologist]

that's what i already SAID. sigh...



particularly:



which sounds like heroin abuse, S/M and Terminator to me.

I think you're confusing a full BwO with a healthy organic body. That's the exact sort of binary D&G are trying to escape from...

 

[zhao]

trust me, i'm the first to defend heroin. especially against the false claims society and the war on drugs makes about it. but all said and done (and i've done enough of it to know), it is just simply not good for creativity. even Burroughs admits it -- he said something like he'd have been a better writer if he wasn't a junky or something to that effect.

I think you're confusing a full BwO with a healthy organic body. That's the exact sort of binary D&G are trying to escape from...

not exactly sure what you mean. explain?

 

[nomadologist]

I totally agree. Everytime I have relapsed and managed to get off again, it's always been mostly because I simply lose any creative ambition when I'm on it, and I get sick of that. Not to mention thousands upon thousands of dollars. And friends. And shrinks. (I am the first to admit that it's the one drug that should be completely illegal and the ban legally enforced across the board.)

Think about it in the old "Oedipal" Freudian terms: how can you sublimate anything when you have absolutely ZERO libido? This is where D&Gs views on this become interesting to me, in the way they try to salvage some hope for an "Anti-Oedipal" "full" BwO that results from heroin use, even though the put the obvious disclaimers on it.

The weirdest thing getting clean is having to SEE and SMELL and TASTE and FEEL things again. It takes a lot of getting used to. On bupe, if I go outside and smell anything, say a big blast of fuel smell from a car, I instantly wretch just from the sensation.

What I meant was that the BwO is not supposed to be "energized" necessarily, or "healthy"...

 

[zhao]

What I meant was that the BwO is not supposed to be "energized" necessarily, or "healthy"...

physical health can be a trap, sure, but in an optimum state an organism has the courage and fucking audacity, necessary to explore unfamiliar lines/paths/plains -- not sure what it would be in Delusian terms -- let's just say ways of being.

a healthy body and confident mind has the most number of options of how to live, and to creatively produce.

with that said i do love my weed.

 

[zhao]

get off again ... mostly because I simply lose any creative ambition when I'm on it

how can you sublimate anything when you have absolutely ZERO libido?

the 2 are very much related, and it's an interesting equation, but creative ambition is not the same as libido and they each can exist without the other.

 

[zhao]

even weed i'm smoking less and less of.

but heroin should not be illegal. it is a WONDERFUL THING. really. amazing. but turns into a nightmare if, and that's very often, abused.

i've never had a habit. most ever was every weekend or every other weekend. now it's like once a few years, if a special occasion comes up...

 

[nomadologist]

the problem is, there is no way to use opiates without the direct supervision of a doctor without developing a dependency over time. even people with the supervision of a doctor often develop dependencies. good for you if you managed not to get addicted, but it literally only takes 24-48 hours/three or four dime bags of decent shit to get back on the wagon. there's always the big lie: "just one more time..."

the only thing i can fathom that is worse than withdrawal is being shuttled to a concentration camp. even there you have something to cling to, because there's some hope you'll die in the camp. i know someone who had withdrawal last 10 full days.