comelately
Wild Horses
I probably should have said 'post-modern' not 'post-feminist' world because that's probably more accurate.
I was at said 'Path 2' evening last night - small affair in upstairs room. A longtime friend (and male social alpha within that group) beckoned the organiser lady (who he knows well, and I know a bit - she used to date a Path 2 guy but the man she lives with now is pretty Path 1) and said re: her dress - "Why have you come out in your dressing gown?". The girl goes into her 'I've been negged' smile and says 'you're mean' to my friend. I was shocked and told him as much, we kinda laughed it off and moved on. But maybe I was wrong to be shocked. Maybe Path 2 guys enjoy negging and that's why they end up overemphasising it in their pick-ups. I dunno, I just thought it was interesting.
The pick-up community needs to have some 'skeezy dudes' in it pretty much by necessity - they impress certain types of wannabe-PUA and often make convinving 'instructors'. For example, Owen 'Tyler Durden' Cook from The Game (who probably is some sort of megalomaniac, but is clearly very intelligent with regards to social dynamics) has a long-term girlfriend and although he does go out 'in the field', he has people instructors like Tim (whose 'you can be my girlfriend for the next 5 minutes' routine makes me ill) and Ossie (RSD's London instructor, clearly quite skeezy).
The other thing about the 'skeezy dudes' is that they do often seem to really want to help those less 'naturally blessed' in this department. I remember talking to a MM instructor about a PUA called 'Toecutter' who would run a cold-read palm-reading routine which *always* ended up with some line indicating that 'they're fertile' - he boasted that this would and did give infertile girls short-term hope if nothing else. I thought this was completely over the line. The MM guy agreed (though I'm not sure wholeheartedly I grant you), but said that Toecutter probably does more to help newbies out than any other mPUA he knew.
In my own life, I did use some 'comfort-building' questions that I took from a msgboard - it instructed you to be 'really interested' in the answers. Now this post came from a 'skeezy dude' who, according to mutual friends, probably does have some women issues. But his advice helped me without turning me into another skeezy dude. I'm not absolving them of their skeeziness merely rejecting the notion that the community turnhs nerds into cookie-cutter skeezy dudes, like somehow every guy who goes to a personal trainer will become a meathead bodybuilder or everyone who goes to a yoga class will end up renouncing everything and going to India.
I can see why people see the bromance as funny and ironic, but I met some good friends in that community who are often a bit more straightforward and genuine than some of my Path 2 friends - whose flippant bar-culture and status games (I'm talking about this circle in question) seems very strange to me, and I'm not really willing to play if there's no 'prize' for winning whatever that says about me. I didn't go much myself, but I know during the Summer there's one PUA/actor type who runs 'Improv' classes for wannabe-PUAs to just learn to 'riff' with eachother. And they were a lot of fun and it's only natural that people will bond.
I agree that there is a valid critique to be made with regards to manipulation. The grey areas are massive but yes some people in the community step over the lines. I guess what I'm saying is that you don't get to understand the community by looking merely at the so-called 'top guys'. Most people do not want to be that manipulative, so they'll take what they can use and that's *perfect*. If anything, the community is financed by rich people who will take bootcamps and not really put the 'practice' in - young newbs can certainly get a lot of free help in London from the community. Infact not just young, some old guy who lives in a tent in one of the Royal Parks (who had only ever paid for it) invaded the community and he was beyind terrible, stank etc - I think I was one of the first to encounter him but he quickly became legendary. Practically every London-based PUA offered to help him, I know that "AFC_Adam" spent several days with the guy. From what I understand, it was very much two steps forward, one step back but he certainly became a better conversationalist if nothing else.
While I think seeing pick-up as a spiritual quest is just questionable (and the period after the release of '300' was excruciating), you do find out a lot about yourself, and other people, 'in the field'. I believe Plato said that you find out more about a person in a hour of play than in a year of conversation, and so for those who have little recent experience of 'playing' the whole thing can be pretty mind-blowing. A lot of puas end up going on Vipassana Meditation retreats, doing lots of Martial Arts/Yoga. My thing is 5 Rhythms (as in 'Rainbow Rhythms' from Peep Show yes). It's probably because we get quite attached to this sense of 'mind-blowedness' that we found in the field - so I suppose it is akin to a spiritual experience, like a good gig or a good club-night can be. Also, in order for some dweeb loser to truly learn to love and respect women, he's going to have to meet and talk to a few *first*. In an ideal world, the 'pick-up fairy' would leave a new pair of shoes underneath the bed of the poor girls who have to suffer a lame approach from some guy who has no real clue what's he's doing or why he's doing it. Maybe there should be a greater emphasis on 'remedial work' before you actually go and put yourself out there. But I'm not convinced that much damage is being done and I'm pretty convinced that overall the community greatly adds to the sum of human happiness and is a progressive force in terms of deveoping understanding, interconnection and, yes, love.
Hmmm, what was I responding to again? If anyone has anything paticular they want me to respond to, please remind me and I will do so. One final point - although PUA 'terminology' does have its problems and consequences, I think the fact we ended up creating our own short-hand in this thread tells you that this terminology (HBs, AMOGs etc) wasn't just created for the fun of it.
I was at said 'Path 2' evening last night - small affair in upstairs room. A longtime friend (and male social alpha within that group) beckoned the organiser lady (who he knows well, and I know a bit - she used to date a Path 2 guy but the man she lives with now is pretty Path 1) and said re: her dress - "Why have you come out in your dressing gown?". The girl goes into her 'I've been negged' smile and says 'you're mean' to my friend. I was shocked and told him as much, we kinda laughed it off and moved on. But maybe I was wrong to be shocked. Maybe Path 2 guys enjoy negging and that's why they end up overemphasising it in their pick-ups. I dunno, I just thought it was interesting.
The pick-up community needs to have some 'skeezy dudes' in it pretty much by necessity - they impress certain types of wannabe-PUA and often make convinving 'instructors'. For example, Owen 'Tyler Durden' Cook from The Game (who probably is some sort of megalomaniac, but is clearly very intelligent with regards to social dynamics) has a long-term girlfriend and although he does go out 'in the field', he has people instructors like Tim (whose 'you can be my girlfriend for the next 5 minutes' routine makes me ill) and Ossie (RSD's London instructor, clearly quite skeezy).
The other thing about the 'skeezy dudes' is that they do often seem to really want to help those less 'naturally blessed' in this department. I remember talking to a MM instructor about a PUA called 'Toecutter' who would run a cold-read palm-reading routine which *always* ended up with some line indicating that 'they're fertile' - he boasted that this would and did give infertile girls short-term hope if nothing else. I thought this was completely over the line. The MM guy agreed (though I'm not sure wholeheartedly I grant you), but said that Toecutter probably does more to help newbies out than any other mPUA he knew.
In my own life, I did use some 'comfort-building' questions that I took from a msgboard - it instructed you to be 'really interested' in the answers. Now this post came from a 'skeezy dude' who, according to mutual friends, probably does have some women issues. But his advice helped me without turning me into another skeezy dude. I'm not absolving them of their skeeziness merely rejecting the notion that the community turnhs nerds into cookie-cutter skeezy dudes, like somehow every guy who goes to a personal trainer will become a meathead bodybuilder or everyone who goes to a yoga class will end up renouncing everything and going to India.
I can see why people see the bromance as funny and ironic, but I met some good friends in that community who are often a bit more straightforward and genuine than some of my Path 2 friends - whose flippant bar-culture and status games (I'm talking about this circle in question) seems very strange to me, and I'm not really willing to play if there's no 'prize' for winning whatever that says about me. I didn't go much myself, but I know during the Summer there's one PUA/actor type who runs 'Improv' classes for wannabe-PUAs to just learn to 'riff' with eachother. And they were a lot of fun and it's only natural that people will bond.
I agree that there is a valid critique to be made with regards to manipulation. The grey areas are massive but yes some people in the community step over the lines. I guess what I'm saying is that you don't get to understand the community by looking merely at the so-called 'top guys'. Most people do not want to be that manipulative, so they'll take what they can use and that's *perfect*. If anything, the community is financed by rich people who will take bootcamps and not really put the 'practice' in - young newbs can certainly get a lot of free help in London from the community. Infact not just young, some old guy who lives in a tent in one of the Royal Parks (who had only ever paid for it) invaded the community and he was beyind terrible, stank etc - I think I was one of the first to encounter him but he quickly became legendary. Practically every London-based PUA offered to help him, I know that "AFC_Adam" spent several days with the guy. From what I understand, it was very much two steps forward, one step back but he certainly became a better conversationalist if nothing else.
While I think seeing pick-up as a spiritual quest is just questionable (and the period after the release of '300' was excruciating), you do find out a lot about yourself, and other people, 'in the field'. I believe Plato said that you find out more about a person in a hour of play than in a year of conversation, and so for those who have little recent experience of 'playing' the whole thing can be pretty mind-blowing. A lot of puas end up going on Vipassana Meditation retreats, doing lots of Martial Arts/Yoga. My thing is 5 Rhythms (as in 'Rainbow Rhythms' from Peep Show yes). It's probably because we get quite attached to this sense of 'mind-blowedness' that we found in the field - so I suppose it is akin to a spiritual experience, like a good gig or a good club-night can be. Also, in order for some dweeb loser to truly learn to love and respect women, he's going to have to meet and talk to a few *first*. In an ideal world, the 'pick-up fairy' would leave a new pair of shoes underneath the bed of the poor girls who have to suffer a lame approach from some guy who has no real clue what's he's doing or why he's doing it. Maybe there should be a greater emphasis on 'remedial work' before you actually go and put yourself out there. But I'm not convinced that much damage is being done and I'm pretty convinced that overall the community greatly adds to the sum of human happiness and is a progressive force in terms of deveoping understanding, interconnection and, yes, love.
Hmmm, what was I responding to again? If anyone has anything paticular they want me to respond to, please remind me and I will do so. One final point - although PUA 'terminology' does have its problems and consequences, I think the fact we ended up creating our own short-hand in this thread tells you that this terminology (HBs, AMOGs etc) wasn't just created for the fun of it.
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