Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Whereas under the current system, it is those favoured by God - with lots of money - who receive life-saving treatment. Exactly as specified in the Bahble.
Tee hee! Hoisted, petard etc.
Obama health reform
- Thread starter IdleRich
- Start date
Whereas under the current system, it is those favoured by God - with lots of money - who receive life-saving treatment. Exactly as specified in the Bahble.
Tee hee! Hoisted, petard etc.
crackerjack
Well-known member
Yeah, that'll be it, those people who want to kill Sarah Palin's children for kicks.
The Hawking business has received quite a lot of UK coverage. As has our old friend Dan Hannan .
The Tories have denounced him, Cameron has pledged his NHS support.
Gordon Brown has tweeted
slightly crooked
Active member
I love this bit from Hannan:
"I just say, as an elected representative myself, no politician can disregard his constituents' opinion"
So that's why you're appearing on talk shows in a foreign country coming out with a slanderously skewed portrait of a public service that is about as loved as any public institution is ever likely to be amongst your own constituents, is it?
"I just say, as an elected representative myself, no politician can disregard his constituents' opinion"
So that's why you're appearing on talk shows in a foreign country coming out with a slanderously skewed portrait of a public service that is about as loved as any public institution is ever likely to be amongst your own constituents, is it?
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
oh don't worry I don't even think they're quite sure what bill they want to pass. with the exception of maybe Obama himself. the biggest point is whether or not the govt will offer some kind of public health care insurance option, which the insurance industry is vehemently against.
the "death panels" bit is, as I understand it, a distortion of something about advisory panels or just advice for elderly people on planning for the end of their lives. as in financial planning tho, not euthanasia. it's a serious problem for elderly people if their savings run out, they're pretty much at the mercy of their kids financial ability to support them & medical costs can pile up really quickly.
the amount of wild hatred created thru wild claims on fox news is really turning the heat up in the states, from here in the uk it's really worrying - it just looks like you've got good hopeful people struggling thru the recession, with obama trying to make a good job of it then absolute fucking nutjobs fired up by Rupert Murdoch and the insane extremely spurious nonsense coming out of the madmen on fox news. It seems an impossible situation thats out of control from here that might end up in a tragedy for the country.
Also Daniel Hannan - the most punchable man in Britain?
whats this new word they're using too - a socialised health care system?
Madness
wish i had a hammer for each of these cunts
Also Daniel Hannan - the most punchable man in Britain?
whats this new word they're using too - a socialised health care system?
Madness
wish i had a hammer for each of these cunts
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nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
I just read something on MSNBC last night that said some industry (I think it was the insurance industry, but it could be pharmaceutical) is giving Obama $150 million to promote his bill.
I actually like Obama's idea, it makes sense--nationalize the system by letting everyone who doesn't have health care now have access to the same plan congress has, but allow private insurance companies to remain in business and allow people who already have insurance to keep theirs if they'd prefer it. This way, the government will be essentially competing with private companies, and the government will likely win or at least drive down costs considerably, as fewer people go to the ER for basic treatment and then ditch the bill (this was one reason costs of treatment have risen steadily for years--hospitals had to make up for the losses by redistributing costs to paying/insured patients, which sent premiums sky high).
Obama's earlier campaign plan to incentivize and basically force (through tax breaks and tax hikes) companies to offer their employees health insurance seemed smart, too. I'm not sure if that figures into the bill somehow but I hope it does.
I cannot believe the shit I've heard older people saying about all this, mms--that they're going to take away medicare (a gov program) for one. I knew it must be a Fox News con job.
Edit: Obviously, we're still going to need massive industry reforms, but this is a good start.
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nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Yeah, the single payer system is nice. The only downside to "socialized" medicine--since no system is perfect--is that there are longer waiting lists for critical surgeries and usually fewer surgeons to provide them, since often surgeons don't make as much money so fewer people want to spend 15 years in school to become one. But there are always trade-offs. I would prefer this to a system where more than half of a country's citizens can't get treatment unless they're willing to go bankrupt to get it, though, so that's not really an argument against nationalizing. Plus, Obama's plan doesn't preclude private industry, it just sort of sends in the government to cap prices.
Exactly, it's fucking mindblowingly stupid. Plus, we already have a country where, because health insurance premiums are out of control, more and more people qualify for medicaid every day. I mean, since I have medical bills that exceed a certain amount of money per month, I'm on it, and, it's awesome, it pays for *everything*, I have no co-pays for my medications anymore, nothing. If the new system is anything like medicaid, everyone's going to be happy with it (except doctors who make a lot less unless they defraud the system).
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Sorry to go slightly off topic, but hearing these Tory pricks going on about how America "shouldn't make Britain's mistake" by founding its own NHS or something comparable is just unbelievable. Well, it's actually all too believable, of course. Hopefully it'll backfire as the public realise that this doesn't exactly give the party a ringing endorsement as future custodians of the service after the next election. I mean, twelve years of Labour has not been unambiguously great for the NHS, but they do at least understand that it costs money to run and that this is hugely important to the wellbeing of the country.
I've not been keeping too close an eye on developments stateside but it goes without saying anything that widens access to primary healthcare is an enormous step forward.
I've not been keeping too close an eye on developments stateside but it goes without saying anything that widens access to primary healthcare is an enormous step forward.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I've no idea about this, could well be true, tho keep in mind lobbyists & the people they represent often play both sides of the fence. I'd like to see who, specifically, was giving him $. can you link to the article? either way he & his team have certainly put a lot of effort into reaching out to Insurance, Pharma, etc. as well as the AMA & other doctors' groups. they def learned from Clinton's failure to get health care reform thru in the 90s. I'd like to know what that "support" costs - the real issue isn't whether or not a bill will pass, but what Obama/his backers will have to give up to get it through. if it doesn't include some kind of public option then the whole thing was pretty much a waste of time.
the problem lots of people - esp. the insurance industry & free market hardliners - have w/the public (govt) option is that they say private companies won't be able to compete w/the govt, to the detriment of consumers. that's not my argument - personally I'd also much prefer a country where health care is more like the UK or Canada - just one that gets brought up constantly. there are other issues of varying importance as well; whether business will be forced to provide insurance for their employees, how & how much hospitals & doctors will be paid....
...& of course the BIG question - how we'll pay for it, which is the only big point I've yet to see Obama or anyone else outline, at least clearly. it's always some mix of tax hikes on the wealthy (great, do it), predicted improvements in efficiency from digitizing records & so on (great if it works out but no one's sure how much $ that will actually save), and then...??? that's not quite an argument against so much as a kind of bite your lip concern, seeing as the alternative, maintaining the status quo, is even worse.
I maintain that a great deal of the anger spilling out has everything to do with anything but health care reform. there's no doubt that Fox, Limbaugh, etc. are whipping up the mob but they wouldn't be having such an easy time doing so if there wasn't such a raw nerve for them to tap into. I dunno - chalking it all up to a "Fox con job" seems to me to be again, a mistake.
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nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
What I think is funny is that if you wanted to talk about the things that could be downsides to nationalized health insurance or health care, you could already look at medicaid or another country and point to legitimate problems that really do exist--sometimes things do get bogged down in bureaucracy and such, doctors in private practice have a hard time meeting overheads when they only see patients on gov benefits, doctors can't pay back student loans in the hundreds of thousands if they don't get paid a certain amount (mostly relevant in the US), certain decisions about care could end up in the hands of politicians instead of citizens (look at what already happened with stem cell research...), the profit incentive private companies have does make the wheels move quickly, etc.
These are perhaps real issues we could address that are cause for some amount of mild concern. But instead, Fox News and its increasingly shrill and hysterical republican minions prefer to lower themselves to Glenn Beck making montages of Nazi rallies talking about how science in the hands of the government equals mass murder. What that says about their constituency is just...terrifying.
These are perhaps real issues we could address that are cause for some amount of mild concern. But instead, Fox News and its increasingly shrill and hysterical republican minions prefer to lower themselves to Glenn Beck making montages of Nazi rallies talking about how science in the hands of the government equals mass murder. What that says about their constituency is just...terrifying.
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Here's the link, looks like it was big pharma. Given that it's big p and not the insurance industry, I'm not surprised--150m is nothing to them, it's like piss in the rain.
You're right about Limbaugh and others being responsible, too, I just think it's crazy that Fox News still has such a hold on peoples' imaginations after they were basically made to look like utter fools after Obama won.
I think Obama will probably cut military spending by a ton, quiet like.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
yeah that's not surprising about pharma - they're in a much better position than insurance, much less to lose. whatever bill does or doesn't pass we'll still be stuck with GlaxoSmithKline & Pfizer & so on, for better & worse. really cannot see the insurance industry backing him at all.
what I meant about pundits isn't just that it's more than Fox News - I mean they are tapping into anger that extends way behind their punditry. a lot of it is irrational, of course, but it exists nonetheless even w/o the Limbaughs & Becks. those dudes provide a focal point but it's a symptom not a cause thing I think.
also I dunno what world you're living where Obama significantly cuts military spending. spending more smartly certainly, less pork barrel Cold War era projects, but, the Army just expanded by 22,000, the war in Afghanistan is going to be a serious & expanding commitment until at least 2012, etc. and even if he did want to cut spending I dunno if he has the juice - look at the enormous fight he had to win in Congress just to get them not to fund 7 more F-22s (a plane even its backers admit is obsolete).
what I meant about pundits isn't just that it's more than Fox News - I mean they are tapping into anger that extends way behind their punditry. a lot of it is irrational, of course, but it exists nonetheless even w/o the Limbaughs & Becks. those dudes provide a focal point but it's a symptom not a cause thing I think.
also I dunno what world you're living where Obama significantly cuts military spending. spending more smartly certainly, less pork barrel Cold War era projects, but, the Army just expanded by 22,000, the war in Afghanistan is going to be a serious & expanding commitment until at least 2012, etc. and even if he did want to cut spending I dunno if he has the juice - look at the enormous fight he had to win in Congress just to get them not to fund 7 more F-22s (a plane even its backers admit is obsolete).
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Well, I could just be hoping that's where he'd take the money from, but if I were him that's where I'd take it from. Immediately. Why expand the "war" in Afghanistan? Stupid. Just a waste of time and money. Hopefully they're still not planning on going into Iraq and rebuilding its entire infastructure, I really hope not.
Also, I know there have always been those nutsos in this country, but I do wonder if there wasn't such a big media presence backing them and whipping up the frenzy all of the time whether they'd finally-- idk-- read a newspaper that's not written by hacks or something. Or think for a minute. I just don't understand those people.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
& yet, we're doing it. the last 2 months have been the bloodiest - U.S. casualties wise - of the entire war, there's a big offensive (USMC in the lead) in Helmand Valley, etc. there's no way it's going to scale down until the 2012 election at the earliest, Obama has committed too much (maybe to avoid looking soft after half-pulling out of Iraq, that's politics for ya).
re: "nutsos" - I dunno, I don't want to rehash this argument again, but I don't think these people are crazy. full of fears (some rational, some not), certainly. desperate in some cases or at least they feel desperate. I think the Limbaughs etc. def act as a goad, to sharpen & direct those fears & that anger. health care does touch really basic & strong issues for people - life & death really, the most basic issues of all - but I really think it's also just a convenient target for people to vent their feelings over issues that are too big and/or abstract for them to deal with directly.
also, liberals etc. tend to stick to NYT/MSNBC/etc. - sure, the tone is more refined, better educated, generally more "progressive", etc. but it's not like the Beck/Limbaugh audience has a monopoly on viewing the world thru blinders.
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
I think 'Fox News' republicans--mostly employed middle class whites with college degrees who worship Regan--are sort of just politically under the sway of ideology that I find repulsive.
At a certain point, it's extremely condescending to make excuses for people, although it's always appropriate to have some compassion. I grew up in a very backwards area, full of all of these attitudes. Nobody had any money, nobody had anything. But at a certain point, you have to start thinking about the world and wondering what might actually work, question authority, and stop letting fear control you. I don't blame anybody personally--mostly I blame the educational system for not doing its job and the media for exploiting ignorance.
Also, MSNBC isn't something I read because it's "good" or not hacky, I read it because there's a ticker on Windows vista and the headlines come up on my desktop. It's just AP newswire items that are reposted, for the most part.
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Re where the hysteria might be coming from...
I just saw this comment on a blog and it makes sense:
I just saw this comment on a blog and it makes sense:
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
this is a different - tho related, & probably overlapping - demographic from what I had in mind. most of the educated middle & upper-class conservatives I've known had some combination of loathing, contempt & grudging respect for Limbaugh/Beck etc & the same thing, minus the respect, for their fanbases. it's not - I really don't want to stereotype - just rural, working-class people or whatever, I've worked construction in rural & urban settings with plenty of dudes who listen to NPR in their pickups on the way to work. I just think a lot of people are some combination of afraid & angry right now, & that health care happens to be a convenient platform for some people to vent all that, while insurance lobbyists/(educated, middle-class) conservative activists/pundits lap it up & try to keep the anger harnessed. middle-class people w/college degrees tend to have more avenues open to them to express their frustration, that's all, plus having a decent job tends to dull the keen edge of that anger.
admittedly a lot of this is just my own speculation, intuition, but it's a solid feeling I get both from what I see/read in the media & from what I hear talking to people at school, work, around town & so on. & certainly, again, the conservative media is greatly exacerbating the problem by putting out a lot of disingenuous, or outright false, information & by whipping hysteria.
I'm not accusing you personally or anyone else of sticking only to MSNBC or only to Fox News (or what those 2 represent). I'm just saying that most people - including myself, of course, tho I try to be conscious of it - tend to read things that reinforce, not challenge, their views.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
that's exactly what I've been saying/trying to say for the last 3 pages. tho I guess I was dancing around it a bit, I should have been clearer & just said "white privilege", decline thereof. that's what I mean by history passing them by, by desperation. it was the same deal poor whites - far too poor to own slaves - in the antebellum South, in every segment of American history where poor whites have been played off against blacks, or others, for labor. middle-class, educated white people (tbc, I am obviously in this bracket) have a buffer against the decline of white privilege which working-class & poor whites do not.
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scottdisco
rip this joint please
N and P bang OTM re privilege etc.
Hannan is, truly, a cunt who is beyond contempt. from a UK-pov, i gather his Sunday Telegraph mates allowed him some column inches yesterday to 'apologise' (i.e. wheedle and do damage-control, possibly ordered by trendy, caring Dave). the piece of shit should not be given the time of day.
cock.